Emacs website, Lisp, and other

Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Jeremy Bryant]

Reviewing the Emacs website, and previous discussions on this list below
(admittedly not recent, but still relevant).  It seems important to add
some text on Lisp which is not currently there, as per ideas of RMS and
Eli summarised below.

Where is the repo for the Emacs website?
What do people think?



Previous discussions on the subject:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-12/msg00356.html
RMS:
"
> We don't want to set Lisp up against other languages.
> We do want to get across what it offers that benefits
> an editor and environment such as Emacs.

Yes we do, to some extent.  The Emacs web site should say this:

Lisp is the most powerful and elegant of programming languages.  If
you want to see how powerful and elegant a programming language can
be, you need to learn Lisp.  It will give you standard for measuring
other languages.
"

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-12/msg00335.html
RMS:
"
Calling Emacs Lisp "python-like" is derogatory to Emacs Lisp.
Python has some of the characteristics that make Lisp superior,
but not all of them.  

Lisp is the most elegant and powerful programming language.  That is
what we should say.  In Lisp, programs are structured data and it is
easy to write other Lisp programs to operate on them.

Programmers that don't know Lisp do not realize what is missing in
other prograamming languages.
"

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-12/msg00200.html
Eli:
"
I believe the same could be true with other aspects.  E.g., is it such
a preposterous assumption that someone might be interested in coding
in Lisp, instead of all the ad-hoc extension languages invented by
other editors?
"

Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Emanuel Berg]

Jeremy Bryant wrote:

> Lisp is the most powerful and elegant of programming
> languages. If you want to see how powerful and elegant
> a programming language can be, you need to learn Lisp.
> It will give you standard for measuring other languages.

Ah, I don't know, that kind of boasting. Powerful and elegant
are both immeasurable things, well, maybe in electrical
engineering one can measure it.

> Calling Emacs Lisp "python-like" is derogatory to Emacs
> Lisp. Python has some of the characteristics that make Lisp
> superior, but not all of them.

Okay, then everyone should know this is a controversial thing
to say. No one, or very few, would recommend Emacs Lisp as an
alternative to Python 2024.

It will sounds like we are a bunch of fanatics boasting from
our own echo chamber were, inside it, we all are fantastic and
high on Lisp.

Lisp's superiority is a myth.

To me it is more like a drug :)

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Emanuel Berg]

> Lisp's superiority is a myth.

Most pleasant to the people who have that inclination (they
don't have to be similar in other areas).

It is also Emacs, doing a file for some compiler in some other
Lisp is fun, but not half as fun.

Anyone remembers the Python editor Idle?

That was so incredibly boring I still remember it!

More fun, faster, more integrated, more to do, more variation.
I think one can say. We can say that instead?

But it's just a suggestion, if boasting about the programming
language is what one should do, do it, I'm not bothered with
it - on the contrary. And we can make it better, possibly.

              ______________________________
             //````````````````````````````\\
             $.       new word order        %
             $.       --------------        %
             $.                             %
             $. string proximity by words   %
             $. as a non-strict total order %
             \\____________________________//
              `^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^`

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Monday, August 05, 2024 at 10:55 AM
> From: "Emanuel Berg" <incal@dataswamp.org>
> To: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other
>
> Jeremy Bryant wrote:
>
> > Lisp is the most powerful and elegant of programming
> > languages. If you want to see how powerful and elegant
> > a programming language can be, you need to learn Lisp.
> > It will give you standard for measuring other languages.

It all depends on the specific work one is doing.  In some instances
the indented style and excessive use of () makes working with lisp
code harder than other languages.

> Ah, I don't know, that kind of boasting. Powerful and elegant
> are both immeasurable things, well, maybe in electrical
> engineering one can measure it.
>
> > Calling Emacs Lisp "python-like" is derogatory to Emacs
> > Lisp. Python has some of the characteristics that make Lisp
> > superior, but not all of them.

Many people are being forced to use Python especially in many university
graduate schools.  Lisp has always been a choice.

I have no problem with Python.  But many graduate schools whose main aim is
getting as many graduates as they can and publishing as many papers as they
can, have been using Python in ways intended to maximize task completion time,
to the detriment of everything else.  In other words, education for these
graduants has educated them out of education.  The best education one can get
today is by self discovery.  Schools are not the way.

> Okay, then everyone should know this is a controversial thing
> to say. No one, or very few, would recommend Emacs Lisp as an
> alternative to Python 2024.

There is nothing controversial, one simple has to see how things
are in specific situations.

> It will sounds like we are a bunch of fanatics boasting from
> our own echo chamber were, inside it, we all are fantastic and
> high on Lisp.
>
> Lisp's superiority is a myth.
>
> To me it is more like a drug :)

The designers of Lisp had to deal with much more things.  Hence its design has
been very well thought out by extremely good designers.  Today there are many
programmers, but good system designers are rare despite the increase in systematic
education strategies.

> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal
>
>
>

Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Emanuel Berg]

Christopher Dimech wrote:

> It all depends on the specific work one is doing. In some
> instances the indented style and excessive use of () makes
> working with lisp code harder than other languages.

After writing just a few programs in Python I wrote it pretty
fluently with very few syntax errors and very few stop - if
ever - to just look at the code and figure out - ???. Yet
after doing all this Elisp for all this time both in terms of
intensive hours _and_ many years for it to "assimilate" if you
will I can honestly/regretfully say I'm nowhere close to my
Python fluency after just a few short programs. Well, now
I have lost that as well, of course. And a lot of code even in
Emacs is very difficult to understand. It is the same language
but a completely, many completely different styles.

> Many people are being forced to use Python especially in
> many university graduate schools. Lisp has always been
> a choice.

Hardly. If anywhere, Lisp is stronger at universities.
And around Emacs. Everywhere else it is completely
marginalized. And if you think about what the universities
are, and what Emacs is - Lisp has underperformed grossly if
one assumes it is more expressive and powerful than any other
language. If it is, then it is a joke. But it isn't and it
isn't, it is just a marginalized programming language, like
boxing is a fringe sport or whatever. It still exists, all
is good.

> The best education one can get today is by self discovery.
> Schools are not the way.

They actually do give classes in philosophy.

>> Okay, then everyone should know this is a controversial
>> thing to say. No one, or very few, would recommend Emacs
>> Lisp as an alternative to Python 2024.
>
> There is nothing controversial, one simple has to see how
> things are in specific situations.

Very controversial, if it is boasting like hockey talk or
self-PR it is okay but we can't say that with a straight face
to the youngsters. Not many of us anyway.

> The designers of Lisp had to deal with much more things.
> Hence its design has been very well thought out by extremely
> good designers. Today there are many programmers, but good
> system designers are rare despite the increase in systematic
> education strategies.

I don't know the details of the history but I doubt it
happened that way.

As for educated people, the skills today and the volume of
people doing technology including programming is astronomical
compared to 1958 and also to 1985.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[divya]

> Hardly. If anywhere, Lisp is stronger at universities.

Hello, I've been reading the last few exchanges and this strikes to me 
as intriguing. Which univerisities are you aware of, other than the 
places where Felleisen, Friedman et.al (Racket folks) have been active 
to have a serious Lisp-based approach? You no longer have that in MIT in 
any serious capacity either, except a few grad PL Theory classes, one 
doesn't really interact with Lisp in any considerable capacity. And this 
is not really news, even Sussman (co-author of SICP, taught at MIT) 
acknowledged the wave of changing to Python from Lisp[0].

I find this dishonest in the least, to not acknowledge the existing 
conditions as they are.

Regards,

Divya

[0]: 
https://cemerick.com/blog/2009/03/24/why-mit-now-uses-python-instead-of-scheme-for-its-undergraduate-cs-program.html

Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Monday, August 05, 2024 at 10:43 PM
> From: "Emanuel Berg" <incal@dataswamp.org>
> To: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other
>
> Christopher Dimech wrote:
>
> > It all depends on the specific work one is doing. In some
> > instances the indented style and excessive use of () makes
> > working with lisp code harder than other languages.
>
> After writing just a few programs in Python I wrote it pretty
> fluently with very few syntax errors and very few stop - if
> ever - to just look at the code and figure out - ???. Yet
> after doing all this Elisp for all this time both in terms of
> intensive hours _and_ many years for it to "assimilate" if you
> will I can honestly/regretfully say I'm nowhere close to my
> Python fluency after just a few short programs. Well, now
> I have lost that as well, of course. And a lot of code even in
> Emacs is very difficult to understand. It is the same language
> but a completely, many completely different styles.

For machine learning etc... the proper thing is using C, not Python.

> > Many people are being forced to use Python especially in
> > many university graduate schools. Lisp has always been
> > a choice.
>
> Hardly. If anywhere, Lisp is stronger at universities.

But mostly for the old-school programmers.  Today, most groups
employ Python.  Go check for yourself if you do not trust me.

For instance, see

2021. Inguva Pavan, Bhute Vijesh, Cheng Thomas, Walker Pierre; "Introducing
students to research codes: A short course on solving partial differential
equations in Python".  Education for Chemical Engineers, Volume 36, Pages 1-11.

> And around Emacs. Everywhere else it is completely
> marginalized. And if you think about what the universities
> are, and what Emacs is - Lisp has underperformed grossly if
> one assumes it is more expressive and powerful than any other
> language. If it is, then it is a joke. But it isn't and it
> isn't, it is just a marginalized programming language, like
> boxing is a fringe sport or whatever. It still exists, all
> is good.

As outlined, the focus should be on C.  Just knowing and using
a single language is the strategy of fools.

> > The best education one can get today is by self discovery.
> > Schools are not the way.
>
> They actually do give classes in philosophy.
>
> >> Okay, then everyone should know this is a controversial
> >> thing to say. No one, or very few, would recommend Emacs
> >> Lisp as an alternative to Python 2024.
> >
> > There is nothing controversial, one simple has to see how
> > things are in specific situations.
>
> Very controversial, if it is boasting like hockey talk or
> self-PR it is okay but we can't say that with a straight face
> to the youngsters. Not many of us anyway.

One simply has to look at things the way they are.  If one does
that, there is no controversy.  The youngsters should not look
up to anybody, not even to us.

> > The designers of Lisp had to deal with much more things.
> > Hence its design has been very well thought out by extremely
> > good designers. Today there are many programmers, but good
> > system designers are rare despite the increase in systematic
> > education strategies.
>
> I don't know the details of the history but I doubt it
> happened that way.
>
> As for educated people, the skills today and the volume of
> people doing technology including programming is astronomical
> compared to 1958 and also to 1985.

But the number of world renowned system designers has gone down.
Certainly few of the caliber as Richard Stallman, Guy Steele,
Leslie Lamport, Edsger Dijkstra, etc.

> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal
>
>
>

Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Jeremy Bryant <jb@jeremybryant.net>
> Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2024 23:27:39 +0100
> 
> Reviewing the Emacs website, and previous discussions on this list below
> (admittedly not recent, but still relevant).  It seems important to add
> some text on Lisp which is not currently there, as per ideas of RMS and
> Eli summarised below.

Why is this important?

> Where is the repo for the Emacs website?

You can find the directions on the Savannah Emacs project page.

> What do people think?

I think it's a relatively minor issue, not worth arguing about.  But
it looks like we are up for such a discussion anyway...

Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Monday, August 05, 2024 at 11:37 PM
> From: divya@subvertising.org
> To: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other
>
> > Hardly. If anywhere, Lisp is stronger at universities.
>
> Hello, I've been reading the last few exchanges and this strikes to me
> as intriguing. Which univerisities are you aware of, other than the
> places where Felleisen, Friedman et.al (Racket folks) have been active
> to have a serious Lisp-based approach? You no longer have that in MIT in
> any serious capacity either, except a few grad PL Theory classes, one
> doesn't really interact with Lisp in any considerable capacity. And this
> is not really news, even Sussman (co-author of SICP, taught at MIT)
> acknowledged the wave of changing to Python from Lisp[0].

I fully agree.  But, the use of Python in universities is also misguided.
In the sense that python codes emanating from universities have hardly any
value, other than the productivity by which new code gets completed.  You
might think that because so much code is being generated, and so many people
have these high degrees, most of them are just servants to the interests
of their advisors.  This is the new idea of the university.  Stay away from
it if you can.

> I find this dishonest in the least, to not acknowledge the existing
> conditions as they are.

If not dishonest. it is misguided.

> Regards,
>
> Divya
>
> [0]:
> https://cemerick.com/blog/2009/03/24/why-mit-now-uses-python-instead-of-scheme-for-its-undergraduate-cs-program.html
>
>

Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2024 11:23:13 +0200
> 
> > > Calling Emacs Lisp "python-like" is derogatory to Emacs
> > > Lisp. Python has some of the characteristics that make Lisp
> > > superior, but not all of them.
> 
> Many people are being forced to use Python especially in many university
> graduate schools.  Lisp has always been a choice.
> 
> I have no problem with Python.  But many graduate schools whose main aim is
> getting as many graduates as they can and publishing as many papers as they
> can, have been using Python in ways intended to maximize task completion time,
> to the detriment of everything else.  In other words, education for these
> graduants has educated them out of education.  The best education one can get
> today is by self discovery.  Schools are not the way.

Please, everybody, take the Lisp vs Python argument off this list, it
is off-topic here.  If you must discuss this, please use the
emacs-tangents@gnu.org mailing list instead.

Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2024 11:37:24 +0000
> From: divya@subvertising.org
> 
> > Hardly. If anywhere, Lisp is stronger at universities.
> 
> Hello, I've been reading the last few exchanges and this strikes to me 
> as intriguing. Which univerisities are you aware of, other than the 
> places where Felleisen, Friedman et.al (Racket folks) have been active 
> to have a serious Lisp-based approach? You no longer have that in MIT in 
> any serious capacity either, except a few grad PL Theory classes, one 
> doesn't really interact with Lisp in any considerable capacity. And this 
> is not really news, even Sussman (co-author of SICP, taught at MIT) 
> acknowledged the wave of changing to Python from Lisp[0].
> 
> I find this dishonest in the least, to not acknowledge the existing 
> conditions as they are.

Once again, please don't discuss these issues here, they are
off-topic.  We have the emacs-tangents mailing list for this purpose,
please use that instead.

Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide]

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Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> writes:

> Christopher Dimech wrote:
>> The best education one can get today is by self discovery.

I tried that while at school. Luckily my teachers trusted my skills
enough to let me step out of chemistry class for half a year and learn
by myself. And prove my knowledge afterwards.

My takeaway was:

I could learn Chemistry myself. It worked.
But it took three times as much time as learning it in school.

So, having actual, tested experience with both styles of learning,
I disagree. As long as your teachers are somewhat competent, learning in
school is far more efficient than learning only by self discovery.

And if you take it seriously, you develop deeper understanding than when
you only do self discovery (and take that as seriously).

>>> Okay, then everyone should know this is a controversial
>>> thing to say. No one, or very few, would recommend Emacs
>>> Lisp as an alternative to Python 2024.

Having gone from Python to Guile Scheme around 2013, I also disagree ☺

But having said that: I do consider indentation style code more readable
than using mostly parentheses.

After reading people say things like

«allows people to see code how Lispers perceive it. Its structure
 becomes apparent.»,
«it makes Scheme way more “approachable”», and
«I have actually found it insanely useful to getting stuff done»,

I think I have a point.

> I don't know the details of the history but I doubt it
> happened that way.

There is a thread of thoughts by Beka Valentine from just these days
about how hackers tend to mix up who got popular with who is better,
because they don’t like to accept that languages usually do not grow
widespread by Logical Truth. I suggest reading that, before continuing
this discussion.

https://rollenspiel.social/@beka_valentine@kolektiva.social/112905007985491839

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de

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Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide]

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Hi Eli,

I only saw your "please, emacs-tangent" argument now (didn’t pull new
emails before).

Will keep it off-list.

Sorry for the noise.

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de

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Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Christopher Dimech]

Have opened a thread on emacs-tangents@gnu.org called "Lisp, Python, and other comparisons"
to continue the discussion there.

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-tangents/2024-08/msg00000.html

> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2024 at 1:16 AM
> From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" <arne_bab@web.de>
> To: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other
>
> Hi Eli,
> 
> I only saw your "please, emacs-tangent" argument now (didn’t pull new
> emails before).
> 
> Will keep it off-list.
> 
> Sorry for the noise.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Arne
> -- 
> Unpolitisch sein
> heißt politisch sein,
> ohne es zu merken.
> draketo.de
>

Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" <arne_bab@web.de>
> Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2024 14:56:14 +0200
> 
> Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> writes:
> 
> > Christopher Dimech wrote:
> >> The best education one can get today is by self discovery.
> 
> I tried that while at school. Luckily my teachers trusted my skills
> enough to let me step out of chemistry class for half a year and learn
> by myself. And prove my knowledge afterwards.
> 
> My takeaway was:
> 
> I could learn Chemistry myself. It worked.
> But it took three times as much time as learning it in school.
> 
> So, having actual, tested experience with both styles of learning,
> I disagree. As long as your teachers are somewhat competent, learning in
> school is far more efficient than learning only by self discovery.
> 
> And if you take it seriously, you develop deeper understanding than when
> you only do self discovery (and take that as seriously).
> 
> >>> Okay, then everyone should know this is a controversial
> >>> thing to say. No one, or very few, would recommend Emacs
> >>> Lisp as an alternative to Python 2024.
> 
> Having gone from Python to Guile Scheme around 2013, I also disagree ☺
> 
> But having said that: I do consider indentation style code more readable
> than using mostly parentheses.
> 
> After reading people say things like
> 
> «allows people to see code how Lispers perceive it. Its structure
>  becomes apparent.»,
> «it makes Scheme way more “approachable”», and
> «I have actually found it insanely useful to getting stuff done»,
> 
> I think I have a point.
> 
> > I don't know the details of the history but I doubt it
> > happened that way.
> 
> There is a thread of thoughts by Beka Valentine from just these days
> about how hackers tend to mix up who got popular with who is better,
> because they don’t like to accept that languages usually do not grow
> widespread by Logical Truth. I suggest reading that, before continuing
> this discussion.
> 
> https://rollenspiel.social/@beka_valentine@kolektiva.social/112905007985491839

This is off-topic here, please use the emacs-tangents list instead.

Thanks.

Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide]

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Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:

> Have opened a thread on emacs-tangents@gnu.org called "Lisp, Python, and other comparisons"
> to continue the discussion there.
>
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-tangents/2024-08/msg00000.html

To subscribe, if you aren’t yet (as I weren’t):
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-tangents

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de

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Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Abraham S.A.H. via Emacs development discussions.]

> Lisp's superiority is a myth.

I have read this in Lem editor’s homepage:

    “It is  an established fact  that John McCarthy shared  alien tech
    with the world in 1958 when  he introduced us to Lisp. We continue
    that great tradition.”

(Myth or not!?) They use this for advertisement and it’s working.

> Most pleasant  to the people  who have that inclination  (they don't
> have to be similar in other areas).

Exactly!   I came  from  a  Pythonic background  just  because it  was
suggested everywhere, and I was talking  the same way.  But it took me
a week to learn  Elisp, and now I can't even imagine  how all of these
features would work in Emacs if they were written in Python.

> Lisp is stronger at universities.

Not in Asia!  I can't name a  university in Asia where Lisp is taught.
Lisp was never taught in our universities.  Not in Asia and not in the
Middle East.  Perhaps in Japan?

> In some instances
> the indented style and excessive use of () makes working with lisp
> code harder than other languages.

Are you  sure?  I'm a Python  programmer and I don't  think so.  Also,
some  researches  have been  done  on  this.   Would you  bother  some
Googling about it?

My   father   basically    hates   whitespace   sensitive   languages.
Perhaps it’s about taste difference?

---
Regards

Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Jeremy Bryant]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Jeremy Bryant <jb@jeremybryant.net>
>> Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2024 23:27:39 +0100
>> 
>> Reviewing the Emacs website, and previous discussions on this list below
>> (admittedly not recent, but still relevant).  It seems important to add
>> some text on Lisp which is not currently there, as per ideas of RMS and
>> Eli summarised below.
>
> Why is this important?

It appeared to be an outstanding documentation item to add to the
website, using the summary text written from RMS.

I personally believe it is important and useful in the context of an
introduction to Emacs such as the website.  For new users, or indeed
new contributors, Emacs Lisp may appear an intriguing choice, and that
summary offers a compelling reason for Lisp.


>> What do people think?
>
> I think it's a relatively minor issue, not worth arguing about.  But
> it looks like we are up for such a discussion anyway...

Right, it may not be an issue at all -- up to you -- only a suggestion for
documentation improvement.

Emacs supports many languages, and on this is getting better thanks to eglot,
tree-sitter etc.

I thought the thread implicitly related to Emacs Lisp.  As the elisp manual says:
"The great power of the Lisp language makes it ideal for
other purposes as well, such as writing editing commands."

I should apologise as my initial thread was in retrospect too short on
context.  It wasn't meant to start a sort of flamewar, sorry it has
caused you to respond to many tangents.

Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2024 at 7:09 AM
> From: "Jeremy Bryant" <jb@jeremybryant.net>
> To: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other
>
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
> >> From: Jeremy Bryant <jb@jeremybryant.net>
> >> Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2024 23:27:39 +0100
> >>
> >> Reviewing the Emacs website, and previous discussions on this list below
> >> (admittedly not recent, but still relevant).  It seems important to add
> >> some text on Lisp which is not currently there, as per ideas of RMS and
> >> Eli summarised below.
> >
> > Why is this important?
>
> It appeared to be an outstanding documentation item to add to the
> website, using the summary text written from RMS.
>
> I personally believe it is important and useful in the context of an
> introduction to Emacs such as the website.  For new users, or indeed
> new contributors, Emacs Lisp may appear an intriguing choice, and that
> summary offers a compelling reason for Lisp.
>
>
> >> What do people think?
> >
> > I think it's a relatively minor issue, not worth arguing about.  But
> > it looks like we are up for such a discussion anyway...
>
> Right, it may not be an issue at all -- up to you -- only a suggestion for
> documentation improvement.
>
> Emacs supports many languages, and on this is getting better thanks to eglot,
> tree-sitter etc.
>
> I thought the thread implicitly related to Emacs Lisp.  As the elisp manual says:
> "The great power of the Lisp language makes it ideal for
> other purposes as well, such as writing editing commands."
>
> I should apologise as my initial thread was in retrospect too short on
> context.  It wasn't meant to start a sort of flamewar, sorry it has
> caused you to respond to many tangents.

Flamewars begin when discussions employ inflated descriptions of a language
For instance, a statement like "The great power of the Lisp language makes it
ideal for other purposes, such as writing editing commands" can be seen as
provocative. Irking those who prefer other languages or who have experienced the
limitations of Lisp in their work.

Understanding the historical context of Emacs Lisp (Elisp) helps mitigate
misunderstandings. Elisp's development was influenced by Richard Stallman's
experiences at MIT, where Lisp was widely used. Stallman chose Lisp for Emacs
because of its flexibility and his familiarity with the language, gained from
working on the Incompatible Timesharing System (ITS) and the Lisp Machine
Operating System.

Words like "great power" are subjective and can be interpreted differently by
different people. Some might view them as an accurate reflection of Lisp's
capabilities, while others might see them as an overstatement, leading to
disagreements.

To avoid flamewars, documentation should strive for balanced and factual descriptions,
providing historical context.

A balanced documentation example would be

Emacs Lisp (Elisp) is a dialect of the Lisp programming language, chosen by
Richard Stallman for its flexibility and his familiarity with it from projects
like the Incompatible Timesharing System (ITS) and the Lisp Machine Operating
System at MIT.

Emacs's design aimed to be compatible with Unix, enhancing its portability and making it
accessible to Unix users.  While Elisp's power and versatility make it well-suited for
writing editing commands, it's important to recognize that different languages have their
own strengths and may be better suited for other specific tasks.

This approach provides necessary background information without making exaggerated claims,
reducing the likelihood of sparking heated debates among users.

Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Emanuel Berg]

Abraham S.A.H." via "Emacs development discussions. wrote:

>> Lisp is stronger at universities.
>
> Not in Asia!  I can't name a  university in Asia where Lisp
> is taught. Lisp was never taught in our universities.  Not
> in Asia and not in the Middle East.  Perhaps in Japan?

Emacs-w3m is from Japan <3

Seriously, I can't name any universities anywhere except mine
but I can guarantee 100% that Lisp is stronger relatively in
CS classes and the like than it is everywhere else.

Emacs and a few other important applications are written in
Lisp (Emacs is partly written in Elisp), other than that Lisp
is a hobby for some part of the computer elite.

>> In some instances the indented style and excessive use of
>> () makes working with lisp code harder than
>> other languages.
>
> Are you  sure?  I'm a Python  programmer and I don't 
> think so.

I am sure. Edit something here in Lisp, you have to edit it
somewhere else as well, often. This, in combination with the
stacking of parenthesis that happens, has caused more syntax
errors than I would like to know.

> My   father   basically    hates   whitespace   sensitive  
> languages. Perhaps it's about taste difference?

No. Just think, remove this line in Lisp

some-item))

then you have to find the right place if that is to be removed
as well. Not only that, you have to identify the right
parenthesis and remove them and nothing else. When there are
a lot, it is difficult to see.

I know there is matching, commands to automate, yada yada.
But it is still much more difficult than just killing lines
in Python.

As an example, have you ever had a syntax error when doing
`let' in Elisp?

(let ((x 5)
      (...))
  ...)

Have you ever had a similar situation when doing x = 5
in Python? Why not?

The Python syntax is ugly but for all practical purposes it is
faster and less error prone, and much, much easier to maintain
for other people or for you x years from now.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Jeremy Bryant <jb@jeremybryant.net>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org,  rms@gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2024 20:09:30 +0100
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >> From: Jeremy Bryant <jb@jeremybryant.net>
> >> Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2024 23:27:39 +0100
> >> 
> >> Reviewing the Emacs website, and previous discussions on this list below
> >> (admittedly not recent, but still relevant).  It seems important to add
> >> some text on Lisp which is not currently there, as per ideas of RMS and
> >> Eli summarised below.
> >
> > Why is this important?
> 
> It appeared to be an outstanding documentation item to add to the
> website, using the summary text written from RMS.
> 
> I personally believe it is important and useful in the context of an
> introduction to Emacs such as the website.  For new users, or indeed
> new contributors, Emacs Lisp may appear an intriguing choice, and that
> summary offers a compelling reason for Lisp.

It is hard to find a good place there to talk about these aspects.
The site introduces Emacs as an editor, and describes its important
features.  Emacs being Emacs, that list is long, but far from
comprehensive.  We could add a paragraph about Lisp there, but then
(a) it would be most probably lost in the (quite long) introduction,
and (b) there are many more aspects of Emacs of the same importance
that could be added, and we must draw the line somewhere.

The way the site solves this dilemma is to focus on user-facing
features.  The fact that Emacs is written in Lisp doesn't fit, IMO.

Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2024 at 7:27 PM
> From: "Emanuel Berg" <incal@dataswamp.org>
> To: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other
>
> Abraham S.A.H." via "Emacs development discussions. wrote:
> 
> >> Lisp is stronger at universities.
> >
> > Not in Asia!  I can't name a  university in Asia where Lisp
> > is taught. Lisp was never taught in our universities.  Not
> > in Asia and not in the Middle East.  Perhaps in Japan?
> 
> Emacs-w3m is from Japan <3
> 
> Seriously, I can't name any universities anywhere except mine
> but I can guarantee 100% that Lisp is stronger relatively in
> CS classes and the like than it is everywhere else.
> 
> Emacs and a few other important applications are written in
> Lisp (Emacs is partly written in Elisp), other than that Lisp
> is a hobby for some part of the computer elite.
> 
> >> In some instances the indented style and excessive use of
> >> () makes working with lisp code harder than
> >> other languages.
> >
> > Are you  sure?  I'm a Python  programmer and I don't 
> > think so.
> 
> I am sure. Edit something here in Lisp, you have to edit it
> somewhere else as well, often. This, in combination with the
> stacking of parenthesis that happens, has caused more syntax
> errors than I would like to know.
> 
> > My   father   basically    hates   whitespace   sensitive  
> > languages. Perhaps it's about taste difference?
> 
> No. Just think, remove this line in Lisp
> 
> some-item))
> 
> then you have to find the right place if that is to be removed
> as well. Not only that, you have to identify the right
> parenthesis and remove them and nothing else. When there are
> a lot, it is difficult to see.
> 
> I know there is matching, commands to automate, yada yada.
> But it is still much more difficult than just killing lines
> in Python.
> 
> As an example, have you ever had a syntax error when doing
> `let' in Elisp?
> 
> (let ((x 5)
>       (...))
>   ...)
> 
> Have you ever had a similar situation when doing x = 5
> in Python? Why not?
> 
> The Python syntax is ugly but for all practical purposes it is
> faster and less error prone, and much, much easier to maintain
> for other people or for you x years from now.

I know a few large university python projects that are almost impossible
to build from source.  So I do not contribute.  But its developers still
think they are some new kind of geniuses.  They can do everything except 
write code to standard expectations.  I call these people hacks of trivia.

https://docs.obspy.org/

> -- 
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal
> 
> 
>

Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Andrea Corallo]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Jeremy Bryant <jb@jeremybryant.net>
>> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org,  rms@gnu.org
>> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2024 20:09:30 +0100
>> 
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> 
>> >> From: Jeremy Bryant <jb@jeremybryant.net>
>> >> Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2024 23:27:39 +0100
>> >> 
>> >> Reviewing the Emacs website, and previous discussions on this list below
>> >> (admittedly not recent, but still relevant).  It seems important to add
>> >> some text on Lisp which is not currently there, as per ideas of RMS and
>> >> Eli summarised below.
>> >
>> > Why is this important?
>> 
>> It appeared to be an outstanding documentation item to add to the
>> website, using the summary text written from RMS.
>> 
>> I personally believe it is important and useful in the context of an
>> introduction to Emacs such as the website.  For new users, or indeed
>> new contributors, Emacs Lisp may appear an intriguing choice, and that
>> summary offers a compelling reason for Lisp.
>
> It is hard to find a good place there to talk about these aspects.
> The site introduces Emacs as an editor, and describes its important
> features.  Emacs being Emacs, that list is long, but far from
> comprehensive.  We could add a paragraph about Lisp there, but then
> (a) it would be most probably lost in the (quite long) introduction,
> and (b) there are many more aspects of Emacs of the same importance
> that could be added, and we must draw the line somewhere.
>
> The way the site solves this dilemma is to focus on user-facing
> features.  The fact that Emacs is written in Lisp doesn't fit, IMO.

Agree

Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2024 at 11:13 PM
> From: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>
> To: "Jeremy Bryant" <jb@jeremybryant.net>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other
>
> > From: Jeremy Bryant <jb@jeremybryant.net>
> > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org,  rms@gnu.org
> > Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2024 20:09:30 +0100
> > 
> > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> > 
> > >> From: Jeremy Bryant <jb@jeremybryant.net>
> > >> Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2024 23:27:39 +0100
> > >> 
> > >> Reviewing the Emacs website, and previous discussions on this list below
> > >> (admittedly not recent, but still relevant).  It seems important to add
> > >> some text on Lisp which is not currently there, as per ideas of RMS and
> > >> Eli summarised below.
> > >
> > > Why is this important?
> > 
> > It appeared to be an outstanding documentation item to add to the
> > website, using the summary text written from RMS.
> > 
> > I personally believe it is important and useful in the context of an
> > introduction to Emacs such as the website.  For new users, or indeed
> > new contributors, Emacs Lisp may appear an intriguing choice, and that
> > summary offers a compelling reason for Lisp.
> 
> It is hard to find a good place there to talk about these aspects.
> The site introduces Emacs as an editor, and describes its important
> features.  Emacs being Emacs, that list is long, but far from
> comprehensive.  We could add a paragraph about Lisp there, but then
> (a) it would be most probably lost in the (quite long) introduction,
> and (b) there are many more aspects of Emacs of the same importance
> that could be added, and we must draw the line somewhere.
> 
> The way the site solves this dilemma is to focus on user-facing
> features.  The fact that Emacs is written in Lisp doesn't fit, IMO.
 
I agree.  Some detail could be added in the introduction to new users
(perhaps in an appendix if things do not fit together well enough).  

For new users, we should mention the immediate benefits.

Customization and Extensibility: Emacs allows users to tailor the editor 
to their specific needs, whether it’s through themes, keybindings, or 
custom commands.

Integration and Efficiency: Emacs integrates various workflows, from code 
editing to project management and even personal organization, offering a 
seamless and efficient experience.

We can also suggest learning paths for users who wish to explore Emacs Lisp 
further, ensuring that this advanced knowledge is available without being a 
barrier to entry.

Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2024 at 7:09 AM
> From: "Jeremy Bryant" <jb@jeremybryant.net>
> To: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other
>
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
> >> From: Jeremy Bryant <jb@jeremybryant.net>
> >> Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2024 23:27:39 +0100
> >>
> >> Reviewing the Emacs website, and previous discussions on this list below
> >> (admittedly not recent, but still relevant).  It seems important to add
> >> some text on Lisp which is not currently there, as per ideas of RMS and
> >> Eli summarised below.
> >
> > Why is this important?
>
> It appeared to be an outstanding documentation item to add to the
> website, using the summary text written from RMS.
>
> I personally believe it is important and useful in the context of an
> introduction to Emacs such as the website.  For new users, or indeed
> new contributors, Emacs Lisp may appear an intriguing choice, and that
> summary offers a compelling reason for Lisp.

The negative effects of children requiring compelling reasons to
engage in activities are evident. This mindset reduces their
willingness to explore, as they become driven by adult-directed
incentives.  Many foundational skills and knowledge areas, which require
time and effort to master without immediate rewards, are neglected,
limiting their exposure to new ideas and skills.

The dependence on external motivation, leads to a lack of intrinsic drive
and the ability to pursue goals independently. Avoiding challenging
tasks without clear rewards hinders resilience and coping skills, essential
for handling life's difficulties.

Additionally, a constant need for compelling reasons fosters a short-term
mindset, impairing their ability to set and achieve long-term goals both
academically and personally.


> >> What do people think?
> >
> > I think it's a relatively minor issue, not worth arguing about.  But
> > it looks like we are up for such a discussion anyway...
>
> Right, it may not be an issue at all -- up to you -- only a suggestion for
> documentation improvement.
>
> Emacs supports many languages, and on this is getting better thanks to eglot,
> tree-sitter etc.
>
> I thought the thread implicitly related to Emacs Lisp.  As the elisp manual says:
> "The great power of the Lisp language makes it ideal for
> other purposes as well, such as writing editing commands."
>
> I should apologise as my initial thread was in retrospect too short on
> context.  It wasn't meant to start a sort of flamewar, sorry it has
> caused you to respond to many tangents.
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I agree.  Some detail could be added in the introduction to new users
  > (perhaps in an appendix if things do not fit together well enough).  

  > For new users, we should mention the immediate benefits.

  > Customization and Extensibility: Emacs allows users to tailor the editor 
  > to their specific needs, whether it’s through themes, keybindings, or 
  > custom commands.

  > Integration and Efficiency: Emacs integrates various workflows, from code 
  > editing to project management and even personal organization, offering a 
  > seamless and efficient experience.

  > We can also suggest learning paths for users who wish to explore Emacs Lisp 
  > further, ensuring that this advanced knowledge is available without being a 
  > barrier to entry.

I agree it would be good to present briefly the benefits of Lisp
and how they affect using Emacs.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Joel Reicher]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>> Customization and Extensibility: Emacs allows users to tailor 
>> the editor to their specific needs, whether it’s through 
>> themes, keybindings, or custom commands.
...
>> We can also suggest learning paths for users who wish to 
>> explore Emacs Lisp further, ensuring that this advanced 
>> knowledge is available without being a barrier to entry.
>
> I agree it would be good to present briefly the benefits of Lisp 
> and how they affect using Emacs.

I'm ambivalent about Lisp, but I've often wondered whether it was 
"always" going to be the "right" choice for Emacs due to its 
support for destructive update and homoiconicity.

It means modifying the editor's code from within the editor, 
without restarting the editor, is possible, and I'm not sure the 
semantics of other languages support that as straightforwardly.

Thanks and regards,

       - Joel