From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10 Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2024 22:02:40 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87sevj9b50.fsf@jeremybryant.net> <871q33rj7v.fsf@dataswamp.org> <86ed73qhly.fsf@gnu.org> <87frrjoryg.fsf_-_@dataswamp.org> <86wmkuq60j.fsf@gnu.org> <87a5hqq4v3.fsf@dataswamp.org> <87ikweepit.fsf@web.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="7162"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Emanuel Berg , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 05 22:03:16 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sb3vH-0001ci-Dm for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 22:03:15 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sb3up-0006B4-Jf; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 16:02:47 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sb3uo-0006Ac-32 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 16:02:46 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.15]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sb3ul-0007Zp-Bf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 16:02:45 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.com; s=s31663417; t=1722888160; x=1723492960; i=dimech@gmx.com; bh=XkKPZWYrt7FL4LtpkbeSFQ+OvuM5yAYMqp9Wm7MeUjs=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:MIME-Version:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:Subject: Content-Type:Date:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Transfer-Encoding:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=BhgVfVTJCra+mK+AL5x6259GGjFU0pahv6eNx/YhigbjaQqcQCk+gGHRS0b/jA2X rh3byDLBwY/V3iCVKHj14ruZ/J98Vu3vCOxp9sxeOjp2bYCuipf1UdSEzrdWlYmqE +FBsMMEAuRtDLeVauuW3RcOrTW4qeiCGJhpTw1iNyL8X+1ZLcxr4QKKxsq9BpAAsK 4zDGKpTyc+N1jbAEOFv0wq48WB0s7OPmsP3D0/LtL4/aynoNrm0zJWUNxLAPeEQbN OtG58M8v7Xw04gFpMrpctOMfQzKX6BrNHX21uXSwts0C7SuOG3Np3+gAT35hm5NlI G5PwWJfapzk1Wt2YdQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Original-Received: from [92.251.79.197] ([92.251.79.197]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs04.server.lan [172.19.170.170]) (via HTTP); Mon, 5 Aug 2024 22:02:40 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <87ikweepit.fsf@web.de> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:uYOCP0x7qIgWU/NO9vGdy5GzFfZK91wQ729MFIPSaes/5jPri2olu/LJ72bjlKs+iOiK/ b+0vGjfOGGNqio3m/EzNMAJYKPtH98aKtkgJfornMwYENDCUTZu1yAaCmV57ZiJpRMsx+5kZ8OmG zQgqG24WWnlmcDS24Ti6nN54FxLt8Ujl6GEe89KVswXxRuiGbvCmOoWoT8aYLj0RPRmG9yhrGVpj mQG0skwYJ5UxvSeFZVfWJFjiUZw9Cfetjm/Zs5e2ZI5Uayhb5nkQckWNtNRPHwVdSVFGMitRMYid 5I= UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:0/4TSBEOfbs=;5DH4uvt51+rrUm5wCTu2CZdGgAk l1EjiAGqnma/IOx6vffSnJEMjcvaRGTD7quJtjguzMIjlnmpvN3eudihjjcaC0FVsUAcMt7iT ++KeNHBJMcQ7ma468wkRQzMnuveRHDa6erzSzn1iGIBA9jTmrakDkvat2AM+eIUE17ZnY4ptm /USPTTKmiQSU+xNxIpAVrW/4jchaG74Jv/7imgTzIh4Hd3d3E0GIsuTijwUrvhvXqenr6ss0u WZhNqFBRtkPshsC8OJtu8WHpxSOsZzFDlvg0IdSR5OCimzF5BqPMtPrs2dK7o+78Vt8YwRp1Z tzefopTw8lju0uz5KQ/l6lArvTSoEGU38FGM13w8+J3YIGd8WL+sPVUN64dy6ekZw6zzdjpVz 6nCRC12uUjGa/NdI+PaCUmaN0CepajqncXQGmWiVx9RkQQ9qy3Wly1PdHfDGn7U5NN7eBYZEE Veej4iOKUPUAWqKS+f5QMeVfD7O+KHjTtvJ6d7znCtCFvFVchYmSACl8YPdwtaPQhuMzJKTYg +LPQQg5EhoiOtJX9OsOV91HctuOnCu3OW6MrVjgyxXUAMjewRaqfvu1U3ZmOXO9AdO0gF4+j2 QDVKoOWdyYD7mK0gZljjf3+DrPvkliTOwt8UNP6tEagpzGuJ7LVktdSw0k2tEL3edAWdPpxsy CrWiL/ieC6BwnIrVCjbj3fUZWNzEzt3WVmnHqTRU2Q== Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.15; envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:322411 Archived-At: > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2024 at 7:30 AM > From: "Dr=2E Arne Babenhauserheide" > To: "Christopher Dimech" > Cc: "Emanuel Berg" , emacs-devel@gnu=2Eorg > Subject: Re: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10 > > Christopher Dimech writes: >=20 > > It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students tha= t > > have had a prior exposure to Python, as potential programmers they are > > mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration=2E >=20 > Having learned Scheme after learning Python, I strongly disagree =E2=80= =94 both > to your point and to your ugly portrayal of people=2E >=20 > You point: Python helps to understand Scheme because it provides > fundamentals to structure reasoning=2E To separate concerns=2E To test w= ith > low overhead=2E To access data in common formats=2E To do the task you c= are > about instead of adhering to ceremony=2E Going from Python to Scheme isn= =E2=80=99t > hard=2E suggest reading "The Adventures of a Pythonista in Schemeland": > http://www=2Ephyast=2Epitt=2Eedu/~micheles/scheme/ >=20 > Your portrayal: this dehumanizing language has no place in a discussion= =2E > Badmouthing people does a disservice to any point you want to make=2E Telling one they are wrong is considered dehumanising in universities thes= e=20 days=2E =20 > > In the good old days physicists repeated each other's experiments, jus= t > > to be sure=2E Today they stick to Python, so that they can share each > > other's programs, bugs included=2E >=20 > Replace "Python" with whatever programming language they use=2E >=20 > If you think, Physicists do not share C++ code, or matlab code, or (yes) > Fortran-code, where did you get this notion? Did you work with them? > (I did) >=20 > Did you read code of large weather models? >=20 > Meteorologists who prove the deviations of a model down to phase shifts > before they write the first line of code (do you do that before you > write a program?) are still happy to share code=2E They know what they g= et > and what they share=2E Meteorologists cannot predict the weather=2E No matter how clever they th= ink=20 they are=2E Natural disasters cannot be predicted either=2E And more tha= n half of mathematics papers have mistakes=2E > Theoretical meteorology (at least in a faculty that works with that) is > an eye-opener for how primitive software development of typical business > software often is (this is not derogatory: business software has other > main challenges, like staying maintainable in the face of constantly > changing requirements)=2E >=20 > Physicists who write a Python tool and then add a Cython part compiled > to C to get native performance and who test this in detail against > different existing tools using multitudes of parameters and datasets > will still happily share code=2E >=20 > Physicists who write a Python model that binds complex atmospheric > transport Fortran code know what they do: they keep the > non-performance-critical parts in Python, because that enables them to > spend more time on the actually critical parts=2E >=20 > Don=E2=80=99t go badmouthing other people=2E We immediately found the audience psychically incapable of accepting truth= s Dr=2E Babenhauserheide ! =20 > The disdain spread among software developers against Fortran caused me > to lose a lot of time during my PhD until I finally understood how > misguided it is=2E >=20 > Please don=E2=80=99t repeat that mistake with Python=2E My mistake was trying to use Python written by others=2E I do not use it and I reject it=2E=20 =20 > Best wishes, > Arne > --=20 > Unpolitisch sein > hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein, > ohne es zu merken=2E > draketo=2Ede >