From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Survey: Toolbars Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 20:17:46 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87o8iv3ac3.fsf@gnus.org> <877dpjp30g.fsf@ucl.ac.uk> <87zh2fnmwq.fsf@gnus.org> <87o8ivumn5.fsf@telefonica.net> <87v9d3nkxk.fsf@gnus.org> <87k0tjufkc.fsf@telefonica.net> <87zh2ehpn0.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30218"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Philip K." Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Dec 15 20:19:30 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kpFr7-0007ji-51 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 20:19:29 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56800 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpFr5-000719-2N for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 14:19:28 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52682) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpFpc-00060V-80 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 14:17:56 -0500 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.18]:46615) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpFpY-0003zC-Fh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 14:17:55 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1608059866; bh=Z7ESX+QCiyYvELZR9DiAuA8JwY8iYeEv87TYiiIDHUc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=ZjRYd0uIpPukFrhaXqc4ajookHqBo/gie8gbGgJJLl0tRyUqezbuijBQlHmRW+gOJ rwVASNOlO1VosTvlSIDN7+J50kQS2OYtUuXVskUCcz5iBVPtnSDlC8t2QmBaywOl9p 5v/QuMHx5iAj3f/LYqBqbc0LQ82TFRCUHgUEd6yE= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Original-Received: from [213.165.168.94] ([213.165.168.94]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs15.server.lan [172.19.170.183]) (via HTTP); Tue, 15 Dec 2020 20:17:46 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <87zh2ehpn0.fsf@posteo.net> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:FuNaZclFU6edwyr0euY8H3BaSZ4IjWGrkaVTEt5hkL7gHUH4DrjGrLWRUkvG2ihYmt4q2 T08qvF0Dt2cNQtgrwGLNwxN94fsctOO0ugg76vMx3bL3BvZAAaOitLGsmhny3EVZ9fSpAuMsDpHj HIFP57HBDMGLxGqAmHWOVRDv3rgM0znOUUxzjtfPOs2Da5vN+KdQHodT5RtDI0fpsBxEw+8CnViu y1ihJLg4sxclOQQjhHpGY1t4TthcFKKwObYH5rMyjGuR3C+ecOVXxv1qEF7ZN5yVvvdrrEaU3Fsh +Q= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:IrQcQtN5s5Q=:JwRrU6fNvBcTvTZ9MzfV6Y yVmtBhrMHH2bW1yonahvYMoq+Yxbg2TI11rkiYmqopiIb6CQXfO2WFfMZEaGbf6TE5fOfZkh0 iaA6hMFRzI+wFa4tdIRJK7PTFDmNXVlOsWSlUj+CZGqe2S5tYiIHW7QdNHFPkYIVyk2gVbymA f86xdjIe8WwTNm5ntN9GhTjvRfWQWB4Araa/wXe7Mq1wSBsPsmQRrddFSvUVBuPjMZuW+x6mB ve1CpknwLnTzZkM5c3XU6NkV8oJNnOju8jJpy9x5SC842aXsU8XQpp7Yw1jBOI285lXepCJ75 jY1k47Lr0YIqSv83NxxKFRm19FeKrqtYYSTiXWWh4qnb+WVBxmFw+CD0juyLL/esz7kbUp6Wn bKBe7snGovoKh6H1sf4FlwyvGcGQGkozWx4XDCGZxpXcVFkBjWZeGBBVi7hEje+KZB/Ky4eXi FeWs1QkFED3XtWRLCzR1lXWEDzH6K2AwPhFdvyUnjOv+r2lV2DXOe8RsP/KyOIazgd71Wi5T3 tdULKF09JMPf3NNpBJ61QSllK8V5pTXuxQAhJ9OO7JPZOrF/F75x29V6gjVXuAVuErhSkELdc C9GP/KwW52Q9Q= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.18; envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:260914 Archived-At: > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 7:48 PM > From: "Philip K=2E" > To: "=C3=93scar Fuentes" > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu=2Eorg > Subject: Re: Emacs Survey: Toolbars > > =C3=93scar Fuentes writes: >=20 > >>>> and which may well be discouraging people from using Emacs > >>>> at all (because it looks useless and out of touch)=2E > >>> > >>> We have no data to support that=2E > >> > >> I did, very carefully, not claim that we do=2E > > > > At some point on the past it was decided that having a toolbar was a > > good thing=2E Switching it off just because a very poorly executed sur= vey > > barely resembles a democratic vote on its utility, without revisiting > > the original motivation, is questionable=2E > > > > Really, this kind of decissions should be based on guidance by UI > > experts=2E Sadly, it seems that we have none onboard, same as every ot= her > > Free or Open Source projects around (and even most propietary ones)=2E > > They are very scarce=2E >=20 > Maybe I'm too cynical, but can a non-Emacs UI expert really help with > something as other-worldly as Emacs? And I don't even mean this in an > elitist way, just that it has so many conventions and usage-patterns > from parallel UI traditions, that it might seem easier to just start all > over (which I'm not advocating for)=2E Now start all over, but transition certain modes, or write new modes=2E = =20 We should not be afraid to throw away old functionality if things get better=2E Ultimately, Richard Stallman started his grudge because using the printer ended up not being convenient for him=2E I do not see many with the Stallman's Approach - I can do better, I have t= he skills, and I will write new code, from scratch if necessary=2E Only after about 8 ye= ars of Gnu did we start to see operational advantages=2E This reminds me of Tevye in the village of Anatevka in the opening number "Tradition" of the 1964 Broadway Musical=2E Emacs must be for worldly peo= ple today, as was being for done for worldly people in the 80's=2E=20 =20 > > BTW, I disable the toolbar (and the menu) on my config=2E >=20 > --=20 > Philip K=2E >=20 >