Blog post

Blog post

[Eshel Yaron]

Hi Emacs,

I recently wrote a post on my blog that criticized a certain development
in Emacs, and I think I owe some people here an apology, in particular,
Eli and Thierry.  I never expected that rant to spread so widely
(somebody posted it on HN IIUC), and I was wrong to be so harsh.  I'm sorry.

I hope to continue contributing to Emacs and its community, and to keep
such ranting to myself.


Regards,

Eshel

Re: Blog post

[Christopher Dimech]

Ranting exclusively to oneself, without any external input or perspective is problematic.
Without external feedback or differing viewpoints, it's challenging to gain a realistic
perspective on the problem being ranted about.  Ultimately leading to unexamined positions
without the benefit of alternative viewpoints.  Without external communication you will get
frustrated and isolated. Sharing with others is healthy, providing potential solutions if you
are correct in your analysis.

----- Christopher Dimech
Administrator General - Chilkat Design Build - Naiad Informatics - Gnu Project

Society has become too quick to pass judgement and declare someone
Persona Non-Grata, the most extreme form of censure a country can
bestow.

In a new era of destructive authoritarianism, I support Richard
Stallman.  Times of great crisis are also times of great
opportunity.  I call upon you to make this struggle yours as well !

https://www.gnu.org     https://www.fsf.org/


> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2023 at 7:09 PM
> From: "Eshel Yaron" <me@eshelyaron.com>
> To: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Subject: Blog post
>
> Hi Emacs,
>
> I recently wrote a post on my blog that criticized a certain development
> in Emacs, and I think I owe some people here an apology, in particular,
> Eli and Thierry.  I never expected that rant to spread so widely
> (somebody posted it on HN IIUC), and I was wrong to be so harsh.  I'm sorry.
>
> I hope to continue contributing to Emacs and its community, and to keep
> such ranting to myself.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Eshel
>
>

Re: Blog post

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide]

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Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
> From: "Eshel Yaron"
>> I recently wrote a post on my blog that criticized a certain development
>> in Emacs, and I think I owe some people here an apology, in particular,
>> Eli and Thierry.  I never expected that rant to spread so widely
> Ranting exclusively to oneself, without any external input or perspective is problematic.
> Without external feedback or differing viewpoints, it's challenging to gain a realistic
> perspective on the problem being ranted about.  Ultimately leading to unexamined positions
> without the benefit of alternative viewpoints.  Without external communication you will get
> frustrated and isolated. Sharing with others is healthy, providing potential solutions if you
> are correct in your analysis.

So maybe the solution would rather be: if you’re frustrated, first enjoy
a good meal (that’s good for the mood ☺), then say politely inside the
community what feels like a problem to you.

My personal experience is that almost every time I grew sarcastic or
ranted, I hit the wrong people … (and had to write an excuse, hoping
that they would still be listening).

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de

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Re: Blog post

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2023 at 8:30 PM
> From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" <arne_bab@web.de>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: "Eshel Yaron" <me@eshelyaron.com>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Blog post
>
> Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
> > From: "Eshel Yaron"
> >> I recently wrote a post on my blog that criticized a certain development
> >> in Emacs, and I think I owe some people here an apology, in particular,
> >> Eli and Thierry.  I never expected that rant to spread so widely
> > Ranting exclusively to oneself, without any external input or perspective is problematic.
> > Without external feedback or differing viewpoints, it's challenging to gain a realistic
> > perspective on the problem being ranted about.  Ultimately leading to unexamined positions
> > without the benefit of alternative viewpoints.  Without external communication you will get
> > frustrated and isolated. Sharing with others is healthy, providing potential solutions if you
> > are correct in your analysis.
> 
> So maybe the solution would rather be: if you’re frustrated, first enjoy
> a good meal (that’s good for the mood ☺), then say politely inside the
> community what feels like a problem to you.

If one put enough focus, then a rant is justified, even if to be corrected.
 
> My personal experience is that almost every time I grew sarcastic or
> ranted, I hit the wrong people … (and had to write an excuse, hoping
> that they would still be listening).

From your experience, have your rants been justified ? Introspection
of other people's rants should be considered part of the work.  After 
all, expletives towards demigods have occurred since time immemorial,
and will surely continue.

When Odysseus is washed ashore on the island of Ogygia, Calypso compels
him to remain as her lover for seven years.  But he finally escapes when
Hermes tells Calypso to release him.  I would also tell Calypso to release
users, rather than compelling them to be her lovers for many years. 

Felicitations 

> Best wishes,
> Arne
> -- 
> Unpolitisch sein
> heißt politisch sein,
> ohne es zu merken.
> draketo.de
>

Re: Blog post

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide]

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Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:

> From your experience, have your rants been justified ? Introspection
> of other people's rants should be considered part of the work.  After 
> all, expletives towards demigods have occurred since time immemorial,
> and will surely continue.

Yes, they were totally justified — but usually not helpful. Most times
they needlessly hurt people who then often stopped contributing. A
friendly text may have helped to stay together and actually fix the
problem to move forward as community.

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de

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Re: Blog post

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: Eshel Yaron <me@eshelyaron.com>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:22:33 +0100
> 
> > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2023 at 8:30 PM
> > From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" <arne_bab@web.de>
> > To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> > Cc: "Eshel Yaron" <me@eshelyaron.com>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> > Subject: Re: Blog post
> >
> > Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
> > > Ranting exclusively to oneself, without any external input or perspective is problematic.
> > > Without external feedback or differing viewpoints, it's challenging to gain a realistic
> > > perspective on the problem being ranted about.  Ultimately leading to unexamined positions
> > > without the benefit of alternative viewpoints.  Without external communication you will get
> > > frustrated and isolated. Sharing with others is healthy, providing potential solutions if you
> > > are correct in your analysis.
> > 
> > So maybe the solution would rather be: if you’re frustrated, first enjoy
> > a good meal (that’s good for the mood ☺), then say politely inside the
> > community what feels like a problem to you.
> 
> If one put enough focus, then a rant is justified, even if to be corrected.
>  
> > My personal experience is that almost every time I grew sarcastic or
> > ranted, I hit the wrong people … (and had to write an excuse, hoping
> > that they would still be listening).
> 
> >From your experience, have your rants been justified ? Introspection
> of other people's rants should be considered part of the work.  After 
> all, expletives towards demigods have occurred since time immemorial,
> and will surely continue.
> 
> When Odysseus is washed ashore on the island of Ogygia, Calypso compels
> him to remain as her lover for seven years.  But he finally escapes when
> Hermes tells Calypso to release him.  I would also tell Calypso to release
> users, rather than compelling them to be her lovers for many years. 

Please take this kind of threads to emacs-tangents, where they belong.

Thanks.

Re: Blog post

[Stefan Kangas]

Hi Eshel,

[Emacs co-maintainer here, but I'm only speaking for myself.  I meant to
send this in December, but never did.  So this comes a bit late.  Sorry
if it's a bit long.]

I can't speak for the people that were attacked in that post, but I can
say that it made me concerned.  In particular, it seemed far removed
from the type of culture that we want to promote in Emacs development.

I thought about its purpose, and had a few guesses for what it might all
be about.  One option I considered was that it was simply someone making
a mistake due to not considering in advance the impact that words might
have.  It seems like this was indeed the case here, and that's good.

Emacs is a small church, and we need to always keep our shared goal in
mind.  I think everyone fundamentally agrees that sowing distrust cannot
help further our goals.  It's when the going gets rough, and the
technical disagreements are extra sharp, that we need to pay particular
attention to how we communicate and treat each other.

Let's be sensitive to and respect that some people might still be hurt
and upset by the incident.  That said, I believe that everyone deserves
a second chance.  So for my part at least, the matter is settled with
the above apology.

In addition to your apology, I also note that your original blog post
has been replaced with a simple notice of its retraction.  In my book,
that also goes a long way.

Hopefully, your apology will have made this episode somewhat less taxing
for Thierry and Eli.  Let's hope that both of them will carry on their
outstanding work for Emacs.  I also very much hope to see you continuing
to contribute to Emacs going forward, of course.

A month has now passed, and soon that will be a year.  Patches and
technical discussions will make that time go by faster, and we have
important work to do.  So let's get to it.

Re: Blog post

[Eshel Yaron]

Hi Stefan,

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> [Emacs co-maintainer here, but I'm only speaking for myself.  I meant to
> send this in December, but never did.  So this comes a bit late.  Sorry
> if it's a bit long.]

It's neither too late nor too long :)
I appreciate it.


Thanks,

Eshel