From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: My resignation from Emacs development Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2024 17:23:20 +0100 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="22580"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Nov 20 17:25:38 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1tDnWL-0005cM-KC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2024 17:25:37 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tDnVd-0007Ah-Lc; Wed, 20 Nov 2024 11:24:53 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tDnUH-0005wk-Do for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2024 11:23:29 -0500 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.15]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tDnUE-0002Dk-IT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2024 11:23:28 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.com; s=s31663417; t=1732119800; x=1732724600; i=dimech@gmx.com; bh=2S4Ifav2XZ9+WRKYjUt2M+Y/mcgJXIsLjKNwkCf/8/0=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:MIME-Version:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:Subject: Content-Type:Date:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Transfer-Encoding:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=OG0rztFhsDJ4PCyzveMeNLGYwmnxltbasJhD0rd3P/A0m/yXMPWtddt3N5++h3Zs xjWLFw5xAd0TcdP+iA+qo76EfJOOSQ6fooi81UaYnYEDrqMfShe5+WgRtFLM+FLLI x9JN5jnDviI16BveQFmRBAjPa1qRXz79rgOwebVW5MVKt4rcbqWPvDYWbSb6HGYOz PolNRbUGDvytGaevdFRYfUZRhgJQxOkq3u7zX698lbHlTTejp3K57tJD5a6akoShw 8MxAlcLB4W/kUvVXvSb48mKPwz7lSEthK0pjZHEhwpo623dUnJcX1sjfBMCtPLwQP HeqrT80lJ/KUVE0umw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Original-Received: from [77.71.252.27] ([77.71.252.27]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs01.server.lan [172.19.170.58]) (via HTTP); Wed, 20 Nov 2024 17:23:20 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:mGJHrcPp0b1TXZnuzDEazJXMnDTmHnqpEiRxfxsPXexWGpjYbGReGB1h1xA/BjD0pMeaV 9O7z2kCk/DXzINp+JxOs1SAZ3TRfIpmM3AI98gqpZaslW3OnB8U6J/7mRnxt7g3KNn3OpyH8MvDQ JHkHE+ohY6abxOLWqccR8JWIpTIYzkdsk1Hp9sqypqvfwy9I2zroicOxdRC7wA25UmKBZYVkAFsF Q4eoEyRdBXPEZFra6issqStwGkP/rtYU5Qv7BbCSbCz5GtcWxAqhwECrYjY8Y2MG9HMkmhHZB3Xd PQ= UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:EYwccnQBU1g=;2Z7LecMSTylrQchxTRp0h3V4lhM QCE1pCtzHlyH0a0W8fmY+02SGjfuNfAPL2AWX18YdW0Q4fAAMF2N6r7YiEwW15jtABDm+f350 3Ti+AdZsGesn2UIUmzejVe3KZgXY4RO2uZCBtRhwNj0ZBNu4DzvwOtgwvIxICHNKp8sIVJKn7 vW/wCbH/gGAkuj8PwpuWMQE+VfIR6fOj/TzkJTYtYlfKjvApoy7gr4yBnT6vW0kPMY0p2E+O+ xmWgUEZH6vzE5d2WXlI75VIxRudJdsOo8UZcTgjmywdYFb/mVPOrcCyHdXHI7uIrFjJ2JQP+n iFdAZ79N71PJEK+xzUwnBlYa8u6qq+VQMvmk0e6ukl+aS3VEAzecMx/YjsM7d+xjPNHFj3q+E 6iM96Oerkvrosjb87ChTXnfLWUyH5s/e3ANLSGyfpD1ZBB+1YyCRxCiFNDI3Wx6bnLDMe4Kfx XhZFwB7LMZRzVmwWMLfTWG5zGLLO4YQsHbwQUcufkqFljew151/sw51GSGRvLkcJc6T1CZ5u8 1aLP/P+WoZQApwPMxS4eYEQewLdeUixJ8W6OtjpRIf95uSIn4+4ypY3XitVzrq/zXh+QCtK3h 9EVbSpvu7ziQrmvKYKMlIiGGIswtJ/41/Pkg/NH2n++/wCyt8ZYBKv4+ZMdZ7KG5oCrVotRKk rxpI2l4F3Mzs/1n7FKlrurhCou1E/sRmWHmASuaAMg== Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.15; envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 20 Nov 2024 11:24:52 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:325522 Archived-At: The claim that using free software or its associated names constitutes aggression is fundamentally flawed. Aggression involves hostile actions meant to cause harm, and using names in a way not intended by their original authors is neither violent nor malicious. One of the key principles of free software is that software should be modifiable, and free to use in any context. Restricting how names are used run counter to the ethos to empower users and developers, not to limit or control their language or expressions. Although the approach should be reconsidered, there should be some thoughtful conversation among the community. Avoiding tones of contempt or disregard for the foundations laid by previous contributors. For instance, I agree with you that ("\\.myc\\'" . c-mode) in auto-mode-al= ist should mean C Mode. Although C Mode would mean the emacs preferred mode. Still, your mode name can be changed for those who want to apply an altern= ative mode. Changing the mode should be a straightforward thing. > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2024 at 3:13 AM > From: "Alan Mackenzie" > To: emacs-devel@gnu.org > Subject: My resignation from Emacs development > > > Hello, Emacs. > > I'm resigning my position as Emacs contributor. > > The immediate reason is that, as maintainer of CC Mode, CC Mode's > symbols, its names, were taken by Emacs and used for other purposes > without informing me, much less consulting me. That makes my position a= s > CC Mode maintainer here untenable. > > Eli Zaretskii and I have had extensive discussions, both in public and i= n > private email, over the last week or so, but we have been unable to reac= h > any satisfactory compromise solution. > > Names are important. They have power. To take somebody's/somthing's > name and misuse it is an exercise of aggression. Try using "Emacs" or > even "free software" to mean something different, and see just how > quickly you would hear back from Richard Stallman. This misuse of CC > Mode's "trademarks", the symbols `c-mode', `c++-mode', and perhaps > `c-or-c++-mode', is just such an act of aggression. > > These symbols have been appropriated by Emacs to mean "the current > preferred mode for C", etc., rather than C Mode, C++ Mode etc. In > certain circumstances, in particular, in Local Variables: sections and > auto-mode-alist, there is now no longer any way unambiguously to specify > C Mode or C++ Mode. Up till recently ("\\.myc\\'" . c-mode) in > auto-mode-alist meant C Mode, and would have had the effect of > auto-loading CC Mode, if needed, and running C Mode. > > The change took place in the commit for bug#69191 "New var > `major-mode-remap-defaults`, for packages". It sounds so innocent, but > is an extremely bad solution for whatever problem (unspecified in the > commit message) it was intended to solve. A major mode using it changes > the interfaces of other libraries in an uncontrolled way. This is not > good software engineering. > > This bug was raised and committed by Stefan Monnier. Despite the fact > that the bug fix directly impinged upon CC Mode, and there was even a > change to cc-mode.el in the patch, he failed even to inform me. The onl= y > two modes substantially affected by this change were ruby-mode and CC > Mode, and it is clear that Dmitry Gutov, maintainer of ruby-mode, was > aware of the change. Had I known of this proposal, I would certainly > have objected to it. Stefan is intelligent enough to have realised this= , > and maybe his avoidance of open discussion was motivated by this. > > Bug#69191 was a big change. In Emacs, we have a convention whereby big > changes are discussed openly on emacs-devel and a consensus reached > before the change is made. Stefan Monnier has regularly violated this > convention, possibly believing that his ideas for Emacs are so good as t= o > be beyond question. Any attempt to question his ideas is likely to be > met by evasive non-answers, if any response at all is forthcoming. I > could give several paragraphs worth of justification for these > assertions, but I think everybody here knows I am right. > > In Emacs there is also a convention of treating eachother with respect o= n > the mailing lists. Sadly this convention is superficial, and seems only > to mean things like not using swear words. The truly contemptuous > communication style, this evasive non-answering, seems to be regarded as > acceptable. I suggest that this change. > > Stefan's habit of making big changes in Emacs without seeking consensus > is at the heart of why I am resigning. These changes have caused Emacs = a > lot of damage over the years and have caused other contributors, > including me, extra work and difficulty. Stefan is a Jekyll-and-Hyde > character. On the one hand, he's a very capable hacker, and is always > ready to help others with technical questions. On the other hand, as > mentioned, he is contemptuous of the Emacs conventions, and unlike > Richard and Eli, does not have the gift of knowing what the Right Thing > is. > > I strongly recommend that Stefan somehow be reigned in and required to > observe Emacs's conventions about open discussion and courteous > communication. As I mentioned, his violations of these are at the core > of why I feel unable to continue contributing to Emacs. > > I will shortly be unsubscribing from emacs-devel. I intend to carry on > maintaining stand alone CC Mode, and I'm prepared to deal with any CC > Mode issues which arise in Emacs. Please post these to > bug-cc-mode@gnu.org. > > It just remains to say that my respect for Eli and the other maintainers > remains undiminished, and that I wish all of them and the Emacs project > all success in the future. > > -- > Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). > >