From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Emacs website, Lisp, and other Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 21:50:50 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87sevj9b50.fsf@jeremybryant.net> <86h6bzqj2v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ed718o45.fsf@jeremybryant.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="34085"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org To: Jeremy Bryant Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Aug 06 21:52:02 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sbQDy-0008cA-CN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 06 Aug 2024 21:52:02 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sbQD1-0002Hh-2m; Tue, 06 Aug 2024 15:51:03 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sbQCx-0002HP-H6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 06 Aug 2024 15:51:00 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.15]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sbQCv-0000lC-6i; Tue, 06 Aug 2024 15:50:59 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.com; s=s31663417; t=1722973850; x=1723578650; i=dimech@gmx.com; bh=rKhUwKQlabx+mBrNZjuONu/5QeTFt/Js5Od9ygRjtOg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:MIME-Version:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:Subject: Content-Type:Date:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Transfer-Encoding:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=ABrGr8xjyexjzo25tvAw66iqrbZl/pjyOhDvjybzEYMBS4gyGs3ayiZGMBXOdSex E+ZFc/k9HKj8YABpjb/6A9DD78MVK7GeBpEDILJ6S/K7D5u7Ws/7AhUgq10XNDesF JJgFhXt5LDAPjEuT3UQs8hfI7LLpbGl4argag36Sw3JwacM+WDLBAC1YWegiGHFH7 SHrrNV0cz08nIy/S95+tjeEeVarczU7O4tboN4k7AcTnMzbeM2KZZh8MbhMCvKjzf OvUOn9DMAKdq126jHRHBYSy0V1hyiwf6bSjxdcyGOtwkhZUWbzD1hrgkJg5Ro5bRf xMMWz4O4NE4q2IXfxw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Original-Received: from [92.251.79.197] ([92.251.79.197]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs08.server.lan [172.19.170.176]) (via HTTP); Tue, 6 Aug 2024 21:50:50 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <87ed718o45.fsf@jeremybryant.net> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Q+yQqojhPuR9GNaiIjCbBwCZpBWm1kXOxKAEqu4zoqsSxA/4Vs+AMMjPlvRl9C2GtbbqR dKs/LWRVGUd/XUEIjJ/SH9loPehi92TT8adFRkK8+2gFTqVDlaiQx2MqtI22UyjwXhrsnDlcQAGm 70GFpksWpgbBTjS6vKOUDdr7UiFC5uhahFTAkVIOM8u0KzTyl1r9eQmKyXKL3uKMhoW3DH7G7AuN n7O/vGq49tvxQ3zG6A+nqZFh6s7yk1RbC4pGSP+aEL22YJValue1NgMsn42Gxs62zoqAeqFvMS9I uE= UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:MZ0EtD7BhMg=;KeNqUjFe1Z//tD5dxGvc8dhxMaW pE0oD6kDHy3SYAO96RU7Iu0x56ZyuFvGHGyd/Yi0nrYquyiXllh1MVXpEJCIASpbiH7VswGx2 tRBNpqciM/L1kx2l7PCwViSiIJQUT6vkyyYhwlPj2CoQxXHaRV16bl4Gpu0BKwQUK8nH0sWSO g39J2MKEjtCzFwYug0iNnksJTQ6LrmSZot+MINdCsvt3J0M1B6QJMEbcHqB3RBkHv1tZnBSUU n9XBCunbmnm61F1TCvXt5fht7/Vte85YOufut4/F8vTQi4fgV8URNOIBu1URrLsceXTlDyRBZ owW1W2ZKHdqHGfEBzy3ok7w4t6x6jh2w1XiXyoaa6VES4nJaNoksCNM+MpGpfd+Hrglkrb3Er +k6NtCTBp5PShwzuKF1mOQdQdVljhvtavDVl9I1W3/M8JEXp/gZ9J/Hn9aAA3Vwj5VieoAVoN Gi39qp+f++qjnzzb+gvr7YZF15N/phz7YULDHHn84ef7OqIvpX0LueNOuLIL2w8V6iX114oE6 inNpNCPL//QkXIIkPHyVymQ32aRtJvNdyfw8nQZieAsQKBW1Wc2wCiH/jgOBZtbInWqgbzUW5 zY1N5OwttiaYoGUtB3Z200m8rZAKWyMSXcpdSYZIBtYk5friyiW1z3A+Yeuwb7ms10PGrvIMg UYW0WPN8lEYFA6SicYj8hECPNDve4oIj/b3Ic8/Yiw== Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.15; envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:322460 Archived-At: > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2024 at 7:09 AM > From: "Jeremy Bryant" > To: "Eli Zaretskii" > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org > Subject: Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> From: Jeremy Bryant > >> Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2024 23:27:39 +0100 > >> > >> Reviewing the Emacs website, and previous discussions on this list be= low > >> (admittedly not recent, but still relevant). It seems important to a= dd > >> some text on Lisp which is not currently there, as per ideas of RMS a= nd > >> Eli summarised below. > > > > Why is this important? > > It appeared to be an outstanding documentation item to add to the > website, using the summary text written from RMS. > > I personally believe it is important and useful in the context of an > introduction to Emacs such as the website. For new users, or indeed > new contributors, Emacs Lisp may appear an intriguing choice, and that > summary offers a compelling reason for Lisp. > > > >> What do people think? > > > > I think it's a relatively minor issue, not worth arguing about. But > > it looks like we are up for such a discussion anyway... > > Right, it may not be an issue at all -- up to you -- only a suggestion f= or > documentation improvement. > > Emacs supports many languages, and on this is getting better thanks to e= glot, > tree-sitter etc. > > I thought the thread implicitly related to Emacs Lisp. As the elisp man= ual says: > "The great power of the Lisp language makes it ideal for > other purposes as well, such as writing editing commands." > > I should apologise as my initial thread was in retrospect too short on > context. It wasn't meant to start a sort of flamewar, sorry it has > caused you to respond to many tangents. Flamewars begin when discussions employ inflated descriptions of a languag= e For instance, a statement like "The great power of the Lisp language makes= it ideal for other purposes, such as writing editing commands" can be seen as provocative. Irking those who prefer other languages or who have experienc= ed the limitations of Lisp in their work. Understanding the historical context of Emacs Lisp (Elisp) helps mitigate misunderstandings. Elisp's development was influenced by Richard Stallman'= s experiences at MIT, where Lisp was widely used. Stallman chose Lisp for Em= acs because of its flexibility and his familiarity with the language, gained f= rom working on the Incompatible Timesharing System (ITS) and the Lisp Machine Operating System. Words like "great power" are subjective and can be interpreted differently= by different people. Some might view them as an accurate reflection of Lisp's capabilities, while others might see them as an overstatement, leading to disagreements. To avoid flamewars, documentation should strive for balanced and factual d= escriptions, providing historical context. A balanced documentation example would be Emacs Lisp (Elisp) is a dialect of the Lisp programming language, chosen b= y Richard Stallman for its flexibility and his familiarity with it from proj= ects like the Incompatible Timesharing System (ITS) and the Lisp Machine Operat= ing System at MIT. Emacs's design aimed to be compatible with Unix, enhancing its portability= and making it accessible to Unix users. While Elisp's power and versatility make it wel= l-suited for writing editing commands, it's important to recognize that different langu= ages have their own strengths and may be better suited for other specific tasks. This approach provides necessary background information without making exa= ggerated claims, reducing the likelihood of sparking heated debates among users.