From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Amy Grinn Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Objed maintenance Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 17:51:31 -0400 Message-ID: References: <85ttjyp9xh.fsf@gmail.com> <87cyqhvp3k.fsf@posteo.net> <87v843qfvf.fsf@posteo.net> <87v843owbj.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="7916"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: clemera@posteo.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Philip Kaludercic Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Apr 27 23:52:25 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1s0py5-0001qK-6u for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 27 Apr 2024 23:52:25 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1s0pxM-0003YQ-1g; Sat, 27 Apr 2024 17:51:40 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1s0pxK-0003Xt-JJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 27 Apr 2024 17:51:38 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qk1-x72f.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::72f]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1s0pxI-0007NX-KQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 27 Apr 2024 17:51:38 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-qk1-x72f.google.com with SMTP id af79cd13be357-7906782388aso216194785a.2 for ; Sat, 27 Apr 2024 14:51:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1714254695; x=1714859495; darn=gnu.org; h=mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=wwvhc6CDnv2YnlnoUJTElAG+RZ88Lf+afj1SEeXD64E=; b=YL+dl2VjbqX1CODn4eVMdFFek4VMRvlYn99wkFIzrqU88spj1FLrLET4z09xTrVFid o1HGOl9OOpqj2wOcmhdLRk6UJp7HFuHvSMAe5S4rGxTySBR3m/Eo+ftCDWg7wuWqlD2r fU69ZEB3wlnKJ9SauWfCcmmL+HohSOtI3AgxW0PX1IrGvxVQ4AA/IBXZ7jipE4+KKo/d LI401e60ukIILL9CHE1oMc3XysAJ0HepPFve1EEFIZYiyKvlUBhgemTt7hRGVk/FZiog Er8VqJB0GI21VDooKCe5FFfOC06GmI9kHiR58VULH2m82gynZlsbTW548DzVJOmqnJXJ YLDQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1714254695; x=1714859495; h=mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=wwvhc6CDnv2YnlnoUJTElAG+RZ88Lf+afj1SEeXD64E=; b=JuUiDrVwLogKmpNTxX/KqHLGMgyOToiZg59AP8m4ZHH2ZEsMfI66nLBhhwCEnFg8HK He+ez8jbsm5T/cSnmSjxuiMsCPCMPtlobCVgHEKz4fNz2j6A+phBi0vt7lPsEe0tpLsj 1uWSI9dDg4Kqjb+UThV3/Im2tLP9Y4C5znWdLRieoja+kuRG59Qg0xGsp2Uyt1tDsnP9 PKRGVaWrShdhtZZs300nA5iVPSlKOlHlYHZUtiu+jkhYb/UgZ1VMLEEoxzdt7Uj69TCC t0GLCLDNJRLKNupeh6vhqJyvEdJyM61J6erkTfX1LfVHYC5lIVQQBjKE1NsIxUprMbWY apdw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVP4qUR2tHregqCmSSyqvTMTOpkv0qEzWLg3AonJ4hcjda1JlU5iBk6vO/qZ4u/puP8mNA7tCLN01mfdzsOan8ARPjp X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxG8uhvXnzNnsqcpKzsJyDnBDMZcQM9xeLwPOPjfNmN37Xj4h8b CE3+UAIkuRGMw+IRdaNZsOuT0vr2tZdKXBuzJF6Qu86A6VNzu8F+Sagecg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFoUfSuf2RaLSlY8y7O2wQj2D8wfG2hU1DKqFAbmc9hnBnbDA8lQCSd04mWDZutxN0UfIZCcw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:f87:b0:790:9a59:459a with SMTP id b7-20020a05620a0f8700b007909a59459amr5862386qkn.15.1714254694683; Sat, 27 Apr 2024 14:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost ([24.236.139.114]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id vv4-20020a05620a562400b0078d66c78d43sm9170212qkn.44.2024.04.27.14.51.33 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 27 Apr 2024 14:51:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87v843owbj.fsf@posteo.net> (Philip Kaludercic's message of "Sat, 27 Apr 2024 11:54:08 +0000") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::72f; envelope-from=grinn.amy@gmail.com; helo=mail-qk1-x72f.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:318223 Archived-At: Philip Kaludercic writes: > Amy Grinn writes: > >> Philip Kaludercic writes: >> >>> Amy Grinn writes: >>> >>>> Philip, I am using an unpublished dependency called key-game, >>>> which >>>> I >>>> wrote, which I thought might be useful for other modal editing >>>> packages, >>>> or for large packages like gnus. Anyways I will try to submit >>>> that >>>> package for publishing on GNU ELPA before objed is updated. >>> >>> That sounds good, just inferring from the name it sounds like >>> wizard >>> or >>> training program? Is this going to be a hard dependency or a weak >>> one? >> >> Yes, it's a utility package to help create key-based or >> command-based >> tutorial games. It's not a user-facing package, similar to boxy; I >> wouldn't want users to have to install it explicitly. To answer a >> potential followup, I also wouldn't want to split up the objed >> tutorial >> game into a separate package. That would hinder discoverability and >> make the installation of objed more complex. All that to say I >> believe >> key-game will be a hard dependency. > > That is a pity. I try to advocate for minimising dependencies, > especially if these aren't required for the core functionality of a > package. I don't know how your package is designed, but couldn't you > have a command like M-x objed-tutorial that reports an error if the > package is not installed (or proposes to install it)? FWIW I don't > think having a separate package is a good idea either -- too much > noise > in the package list. Practically, the entrypoint for the objed tutorial game is a key-game macro call, so it would be difficult to rewire. Moreover, this would cause a similar issue in all other packages which might use key-game. This implies much more boilerplate which must be maintained separately in all those packages. I see your point that the tutorial is not *the* core feature of objed, but in my opinion it is *a* core part, and one that is more likely to be invoked by new users. I don't want to put up roadblocks for them. I think peer dependencies can be useful for extending a package, and objed already has such a dependency with avy, but this seems like an unnecessary installation step instead. I'm not as experienced with ELPA, so I would like to know more about the thought process behind discouraging direct dependencies. But again, I don't think key-game has any intrinsic features which an end user may want separate and apart from its use in other packages, and I would find it odd to suggest users add it to their selected packages.