From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2023 23:02:53 +0800 Message-ID: References: <87il6bt4z0.fsf@yahoo.com> <8734xetjkk.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cywhsrcf.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cywgx1z0.fsf@web.de> <83wmuowwp3.fsf@gnu.org> <83leb3v5al.fsf@gnu.org> <87a5rgrbvv.fsf@neko.mail-host-address-is-not-set> <87edgsmwni.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a5rgmnx3.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="31048"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: Tomas Hlavaty , rms@gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 14 16:04:35 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r2uxu-0007wA-Sl for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 16:04:35 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r2uwr-0002x3-K1; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 10:03:29 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r2uwp-0002wX-Vq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 10:03:28 -0500 Original-Received: from sonic308-9.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.187.32]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r2uwn-0004It-9v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 10:03:27 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1699974203; bh=P/n4GScOQKdVQnDYMVD64nynwFHifWpMhthS47s5dGc=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=kMZiCBKjCbM5bNsItZGFQBgZSSFcwo2UKCcn0NTyKh3VZIhk1CllmWR6zrVnly3wGiOXcQh9/VAGasauNtl9h33mmFgjp2y/71i6EPCIKxAh5XSoBaqwAIk6tFzck8TIPLr/li65JRxmTwMOkjoLSt8j7A0lux4ex8yb+izI41S/UDlkE3Qfww6oxpcdp2ntVzOvSURIjlArzH04UoVvK73etZDo2fL7xEjnqRJHr4fNshKSehwd6vEAdl8WLHv3id2rM5hC9ecoozCqF27IFrsi9ldGVQwOz/M6KyZWpnr18tbIk4zV4Oz4ss/UvJsLT40udF+p2ygn3fg+qFjO4w== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1699974203; bh=/74fwaNEIk53o4S8XPl7JCAZcPdVZpk6RmcjMxsjJKV=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=cKu15pEEYt9izqpKknsGpNv/yMGFZxd6H2MlOHMSAL34kNjhZbfmOS2aQaEevSXyiffnCwXZq8yM+rfLDO7P8MEiUJoVRPhrmHAxHEunW2UQ3qauxRO3ez+YgA6kKCpwie94L66JgtPU6w3K12DPGC+f/02ByA5yBaz7zuYsqF0EIuM0zhPYnxDldQWGvRMliNLfdc8zZQlPXoEPk2NtqPcjMMhTT2APlYTN3KxYLioqoCfFNQY0QdaZUv5rO0kknt22rkWRTQFlvDziTzoysuNYNnIBfsIXAyMmveDF/WlQl3+hU9Om9teONBZ4dcqNtzwjFSth9rp5i12XLZeI+g== X-YMail-OSG: ZccDi6oVM1nwu_isZPlgZo31AUdRiStUArB2EEYavXfwWmetaDrMuiHeBsSMZIz GgjFweg6ooTvutfP9otj4kx9HB.aWfUK7_Ex8VyUqHNmRq7DZV0z2YUROGx6EFo_KOqTzK43fPK5 HezE92sbp_tcmFmQWEvdNXXRmpuioHA3hs3LYzYPbZ3AIC0s72TWbwhCjm_j0Jv_qSV7uikWdklz ZwMZnD0oUENHo7wfPgDvY2PXcIWRvtwUMtBLqmioiqxPQT7gFsc8wkca5vMAbbCDRJBg1_2WruDo pRqo2kGX1qADzjuA5RFcQxRLX5wtKyJG5zpTLL9rYG1glEQ7w0NouZ4rF0Z623ylWANY_gxyH2pz _O_10_w8wHj3SemxkSPMS7Jvf6sxyhLVo_s90.9ySAOrBtOmcqCFAEiWmUswl.f1.bVYnHJ4oJ.I 4giaaZQ9KFNXKJrW_TjvOx8erIvhsi0lveuE3VtgqDRMBWk.k2fHVFu4pJlzot1_ARf9olcF3iDJ NUxtluz.VsZANdeiVFEVR72RAIjQncX7KHIXq15zQwoSv0WNkkeSSJB20HeVkOLEtritvUNxkvi8 _aCg3sN40g3dY5C1ougLRSSPOMETOBx6SjXNMwnH5mYdRlPPPbd14UHjofriAXLMr1eeI0AIvi8y swAT21NtfS.VSJ4H6PNUanTQykYCEOI6jozrToYeRFKPb__hCrYTcDNOe8f.YsvzaKjxn371ja4Y l2KTMsDZcKrYOTlGAr1XOZKuB_slYRfbOMbeMmWOGRgi8EsepELDCWtkni20UALeslAr2YZVyWC_ UAOsTl9g.vpMWroR58026q9vXpXdn9cs2Ij5n1Yhd9 X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: 42b7f4c2-4a04-4f49-9ec5-db64892d2784 Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic308.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 15:03:23 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--production-sg3-8696d769c6-b69bx (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID c297a1ba7f9b21172c6184b98a75a8a8; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 15:03:20 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: (=?utf-8?Q?=22Jo=C3=A3o_T=C3=A1vora=22's?= message of "Tue, 14 Nov 2023 14:19:19 +0000") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21896 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.187.32; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic308-9.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312735 Archived-At: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora writes: > You want to believe that, obviously, what can I do? you're preaching > to your choir of converts. IMO this just a very poor generatlization > on far-fetched conceptions of 20.000 feet views and vague defition of > merits. If you would show me code, I could tell you if I think a > given cl-loop is frivolous or not like I did there. But t would still > be my opinion, and we'd descend into this ridiculous thesaurus-fueled > rambling again. > > So take care and learn loop or don't, I don't care. Then there's no point in continuing, is there? Because my intent was to arrive at a consensus agreeable to me and others who resent the pervasiveness of cl-loop, and that of like contrivances in general. If you're insular enough to never accept anything in that vein, then no consensus can be established, since I'm well aware I too am hidebound to my own beliefs, formed and tempered by time, such that I will not concede in this regard. Thus instead of assenting to a series of procedures that preclude the introduction of cryptic code, the stage will be set for more bickering to erupt each time one of us chances upon code he needlessly cannot understand, consequent on the refusal of Common Lisp sectarians like you to write simple loops with constructs native to *this* language.