From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Per Abrahamsen Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [CVS] f7, f8 bound.. Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 15:53:28 +0200 Organization: The Church of Emacs Sender: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org Message-ID: References: <5xvg5sh06u.fsf@kfs2.cua.dk> <20020830235528.GA13207@gnu.org> <87ofbji88u.fsf@emacswiki.org> <200209021705.g82H50d07442@rum.cs.yale.edu> <200209022324.g82NOoO08761@rum.cs.yale.edu> <20020903130247.GA6318@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1031061202 12713 127.0.0.1 (3 Sep 2002 13:53:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:53:22 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17mE7M-0003Iw-00 for ; Tue, 03 Sep 2002 15:53:20 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 17mEg5-0007tE-00 for ; Tue, 03 Sep 2002 16:29:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17mE8u-0001I1-00; Tue, 03 Sep 2002 09:54:56 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) id 17mE7d-0001Gs-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Sep 2002 09:53:37 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) id 17mE7a-0001Fr-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Sep 2002 09:53:36 -0400 Original-Received: from sheridan.dina.kvl.dk ([130.225.40.227]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17mE7Y-0001FN-00; Tue, 03 Sep 2002 09:53:32 -0400 Original-Received: from zuse.dina.kvl.dk (zuse.dina.kvl.dk [130.225.40.245]) by sheridan.dina.kvl.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id PAA32616; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 15:53:31 +0200 Original-Received: (from abraham@localhost) by zuse.dina.kvl.dk (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) id PAA13371; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 15:53:28 +0200 (MEST) X-Authentication-Warning: zuse.dina.kvl.dk: abraham set sender to abraham@dina.kvl.dk using -f Original-To: Miles Bader X-Face: +kRV2]2q}lixHkE{U)mY#+6]{AH=yN~S9@IFiOa@X6?GM|8MBp/ In-Reply-To: <20020903130247.GA6318@gnu.org> (Miles Bader's message of "Tue, 3 Sep 2002 09:02:47 -0400") Original-Lines: 52 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090007 (Oort Gnus v0.07) Emacs/21.1 (sparc-sun-solaris2.8) Errors-To: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:7381 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:7381 Miles Bader writes: > On Tue, Sep 03, 2002 at 12:55:03PM +0200, Per Abrahamsen wrote: >> The same solution can be used for all other maps, have a "for >> customize only" keymap used by the mode that has the "for Lisp only" >> keymap as a parent. >> >> I think such a seperation between Lisp and Customize will be both >> simpler and more robust, as the two will never interfere with each >> other. > > It sounds more confusing for the user to have two variables which are `the > same but different' like that. The user will only see one of them, in this case either "global-map" if he is a Lisp user, or "Global Key Bindings" if he is a Customize user. If he is both, he really need two different variables, as mixing them otherwise gives problems, like if you both setq a variable in .emacs and set it from customize. With seperate keymaps, he really can do both, and get a well-defined result. The only one we risk confusing is the programmer, not the user. The programmer will need to understand all three, the variable for customization, the automatically generated custom keymap, and the normal keymap. > I think we should be trying to make customize _more_ of a thin UI > layer on top of existing mechanisms, not less. That is a good idea if we believe that the difference between the customization needs of a programmer and a non-programmer is merely a matter of syntactic sugar. I am more interested in moving the other direction, and focus on simplicity for the non-programmer, and generality for the programmer. Emacs is _still_ not really customizable for non-programmers. And I disagree with the Naggum "the goal of Emacs is to turn people into Lisp programmers" line. I don't want Emacs to turn users into programmers, anymore than I want my car to turn me into an auto mechanic. > I think Stefan's exactly right that the _right_ thing to do is something > roughly equivalent to `defcustom global-map'. Something like (defkeymap my-mode-map ...) generating all three for major and minor modes.