From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "T.V Raman" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [External] : Re: Change default behavior of some commands that act on region? Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 11:44:37 -0700 Message-ID: References: <87mtsmbbms.fsf@gmail.com> <83bl91kjlr.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=gb18030 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30168"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Drew Adams , Eli Zaretskii , "theophilusx@gmail.com" , "monnier@iro.umontreal.ca" , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun May 23 20:45:57 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lkt6q-0007WX-KK for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 23 May 2021 20:45:56 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39150 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lkt6o-0007x5-Ti for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 23 May 2021 14:45:54 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33134) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lkt5f-0007HR-Ot for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 23 May 2021 14:44:43 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pg1-x530.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::530]:38572) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lkt5d-0002vq-Ki for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 23 May 2021 14:44:43 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pg1-x530.google.com with SMTP id 6so18431751pgk.5 for ; Sun, 23 May 2021 11:44:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jzz/MjBkkjoJENz1CV/4QmOjoXlU3dgapXjo2Mxourk=; b=F91Naybqag83dVbOcUnUh7I25fdxLjHx1c3w/fj8GKRHj8gicwtjH6EltNl4TkdAVW pYSsDOfHPK5MBLE2rUMhqlLDzLeDGBv/Kc8e0+DyI/pcYz8+scXKT6V1ncoiA/lSLzpu o7eqCbFYG9rs52FkJqqBm7Sovry2pP6yXy8rA/E5Rnz49vHiEoaIs3/a0mNNjkM3o3/O 9jfi24JVxk+hbcyKM30g5jZya5itd66eBgCWXYu4J6radRS850z43bykk3gYnET2tN04 9t3dbdr1bPwJw3g5Hl1WB7ufTcEOGsC0c9O2DV38UGLIYE2SFZlhp4YFKzY0rk4ShQ0k QjvQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jzz/MjBkkjoJENz1CV/4QmOjoXlU3dgapXjo2Mxourk=; b=pEOgXfqZRjADFEt3+92WRyoAVhzdgiyhQv7rOc94iKOVmDO8FYhhEzslklGPxU9pX+ QsiWW4vC18dYlzVtON/Vy/CLVeR+WUYXsv1xMn77z1omo9fnOlabeq0rq/6/FfR7Wbbl dDsRlHTZqon+pI0HWp/Gt3FmVFjD129eYCWLlctYqCJ7LHScbxeDUgWJgYGvTc94xJui wLLnI6uBWeLPRSJeKh1XJFppvjyN7FZ8CV7Pc2+O5oubE5R1+dNQX1OJwQCsmcG2WsH4 4/2gOCYA8VRIQpkfn257k0uJn7/lbLf+UQ54To2C/FP9bxWeDNZjKH7V+ozOLYUIQeAK O17w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5323wUDog145XUZmji9vLSDguQD6H6Dwv9yHwEgdPCvaRIgVvqhl YWZYawbk7Axe7nFGmNo3tAMvvg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw+0Qq7mMrvbcfolv27FfHqRavNjix3QQdfECPOwxfW/JqmgRZnxj9YsQ6X/tQSUgDAM7c8uw== X-Received: by 2002:a63:4f47:: with SMTP id p7mr9936239pgl.52.1621795478875; Sun, 23 May 2021 11:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from raman-glaptop.localdomain (c-24-4-174-65.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [24.4.174.65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l20sm8171808pjq.38.2021.05.23.11.44.37 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 23 May 2021 11:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by raman-glaptop.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 13930) id 24064C21181; Sun, 23 May 2021 11:44:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Sun, 23 May 2021 15:12:58 +0000") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::530; envelope-from=raman@google.com; helo=mail-pg1-x530.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -175 X-Spam_score: -17.6 X-Spam_bar: ----------------- X-Spam_report: (-17.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:269689 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie writes: Douglas Adams in HHG (a source of universal wisdom from my perspective): If someone were to explain how the universe works, it'll immediately disappear and be replaced by one that is even more inexplicable. There are some who believe this has already happened. > Hello, Drew. > > On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 14:28:35 +0000, Drew Adams wrote: >> > > > Indeed, it is important to keep full support for configs=20 >> > > > where `transient-mark-mode` is disabled. Not only many=20 >> > > > users prefer such a config, but as you mention, there are=20 >> > > > also cases where such a config is not just a question of=20 >> > > > taste. > >> > > Yes, and this is irrelevant to this thread, as the >> > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> > > proposed change has no effect on users who disable >> > > `transient-mark-mode'. They continue to have "full >> > > support". > > First of all, I haven't followed this thread in all its details, so far. > That said, I think your above point is a little naive. I also have > transient-mark-mode disabled, I run with "GUI disabled", and run with > "minibuffer-only frames disabled". > > I am very wary of changes which balkanise Emacs. Every change which only > works with some options, or which works differently depending on options > which aren't specifically configuring that thing, makes Emacs more of a > tangled mess. (Not that I'm saying it already is such a mess, but we > want to avoid making it so.) > >> > The issue you consider "irrelevant" is actually quite relevant, > >> I didn't say that support for use of t-m-mode OFF is >> irrelevant. It's very relevant to Emacs. But it's not >> relevant to the proposal of this thread, which has NO >> effect on that use case. That's the point. Please >> don't twist what's been said. You're arguing against >> a straw man. > > I think you're proposing to make some functions (have you said exactly > which ones, yet?) behave differently in t-m-m. That _is_ of concern to > everybody, including those who run with t-m-m disabled. > >> I've written carefully and clearly, from the outset, that >> this proposal has NO effect on that use case. Yet you've >> insisted on pursuing it for supposedly ignoring, or even >> inflicting damage, on that case. Please stop. There's >> nothing relevant about insisting on needing to protect >> the t-m-mode OFF case against this proposal, as there's >> no threat to it. > > There have been features in the past introduced as "optional" into Emacs, > followed some time later by pressure to conform with these "optional" > features. You can't blame people for feeling uneasy about this proposal. > > There might well have been an understanding in the past that t-m-m would > not be forced any further into Emacs than it is already. If that is the > case, your proposal would be a violation of that understanding and an > example of the pressure I refer to above. > >> > because commands that behave differently depending on whether >> > transient-mark-mode is on or off are a source of confusion and >> > frustration. We shouldn't enlarge the number of such commands >> > willy-nilly. > >> Every command that tests `use-region-p' and does something >> different depending on the value does something different >> depending on whether t-m-mode is on or off, simply because >> when it's off there's no notion of active/inactive region >> - there's just the region. > >> t-m-mode's raison d'etre is to be able to do something >> when the user sees the selected text highlighted and not >> otherwise. That distinction is what it's all about. > > Yes. But I think adding things into "something" to make it "something > else as well" needs to be justified case by case. --=20 Thanks, --Raman(I Search, I Find, I Misplace, I Research) =817=A94 Id: kg:/m/0285kf1 =950=DC8