From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "T.V Raman" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On the adoption of transient.el Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2021 14:45:47 -0700 Message-ID: References: <877di4on3d.fsf@posteo.net> <87im1oy6mw.fsf@posteo.net> <87y29hihea.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=gb18030 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="40484"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Jesse Millwood Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Aug 04 23:46:46 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mBOis-000AJs-1D for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 04 Aug 2021 23:46:46 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55142 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mBOiq-00065T-1P for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 04 Aug 2021 17:46:44 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:37992) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mBOiB-0005CZ-4z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Aug 2021 17:46:04 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-x102d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d]:55904) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mBOi1-0004Tz-AT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Aug 2021 17:45:59 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x102d.google.com with SMTP id ca5so4975138pjb.5 for ; Wed, 04 Aug 2021 14:45:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fJooizLJS692yj+vV/bIzIeU0huBs5n4ypD7d406LW4=; b=gp+B5AC1WN/Ba+9QsH5yRPakGbQkD4CmGIJdR8//q76gMj6/d0/NGOhOnBElF4iv+0 KI4m1//4HNGVyhUNQ/auCmqZ67tM7pgZ7KIy0Ns0fETOmIC/GexL8kh/gOMHz5L24W6S a/lydAF+FDJqVz0wTxnzeJcgkGSYvQYcvioE6WWCkYJArH6Ya6S8rdzC5pCFpPFZovvI 04eRH3/k0stXuJsqUs3Mo4ABolLtyVDVMRnXk+ZKJOlbZkd+MYon7r6E1PQXj1g1WZvn hceyHBcyRzML4dsmS83CV9eDkd0+yu05awM8iMdOyRlEIwhtZ4/uy02GBQwugGwnbhUq J4aQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fJooizLJS692yj+vV/bIzIeU0huBs5n4ypD7d406LW4=; b=FhbQM0MfmiWQBfghKDbJWtVl9NZXK4z7ld7WRc159jTPoo2Kn0Pjxmajj4V3DSCz8z fSg/yAbB7nrRS/i2WQ7ltiORl7z0n0ICwVFKrYD0YKsp1DYrwX0F+hPtDHqLLj1l81Kv wiIPGQohBwUwiYd4lusbVJnIQHETTA5n7xJx9T2gXid5XGDyyzckYLFMFhBWqLF4A1RK hXvwx1MFtdSMdgLqsbEXmRC+ElepjiO3+QMl423OCn3dhLO0Xw3tooAxMmLko/MFpUIy tcfTxw6SAILgAFiaPP11i09E4UNDHwBTdxMFsf0pU3MYAIPglm/j1XqLUvvRAhDgwZ63 aTAA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532XxDUKEVRQAv4FSDT4onJ3kxE9e8uClBzGug4FhBN0BZ43GP6A O50vfB3sc9bIFgM4QGEhlvvDwyWdmeeHSAH7 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyr+k+wQh80DLGIpNSgQIVpneL9tfhShzBHCR0tWbKkQvFqIfq3paraxQw1ORubXREeWoQX2w== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:3549:: with SMTP id lt9mr2836211pjb.209.1628113550895; Wed, 04 Aug 2021 14:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from raman-glaptop (c-24-4-174-65.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [24.4.174.65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v13sm7351249pja.44.2021.08.04.14.45.49 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 04 Aug 2021 14:45:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Jesse Millwood's message of "Wed, 4 Aug 2021 15:57:25 -0400") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d; envelope-from=raman@google.com; helo=mail-pj1-x102d.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -175 X-Spam_score: -17.6 X-Spam_bar: ----------------- X-Spam_report: (-17.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:272063 Archived-At: Jesse Millwood writes: I was more motivated to get it solved because where for you it was a pain-point, for me it was a show-stopper:-) Jonas' help got me over the hump. Stepping back, yes, transient, especially when encountered first via magit looks complex. But that complexity comes from how much more complex git is --- what transient does well is to make the large bucket-loads of git commandline options more tractable. It's also a very good attempt at bringing features of "direct manipulation interfaces" to the emacs world --- I use the term "direct manipulation" intentionally, that is actually what people mean when they jump to a GUI. But transient shows that it is possible to implement such interfaces within the Emacs paradigm by stretching the boundaries a little, and where we do feel discomfort with respect to over-stretching those boundaries (losing isearch is an example), we can claw it back. Note that things like dired in emacs are also direct-manipulation interfaces --- they just preserve *all* of the goodness of Emacs. The other package that is similar to transient with many advantages is hydra --- though I haven't seen any hydras as complex as the transients that Git forces magit to require. > Oh wow, not being able to search that buffer has been my main pain > point of transient. Thank you so much!=20 > > On 2021-08-04 2:56 p.m., T.V Raman wrote: > > Philip Kaludercic writes: > > > I recently discovered thanks to the transient/magit author that once you > enable navigation via arrows in transient popups, it also gives you > isearch of the transient. We then discovered a bug where using isearch > to find a transient option and pressing enter wasn't working, but > Jonas has since fixed that and it works. > transient-enable-popup-navigation is a variable defined in =A1=AEtransie= nt.el=A1=AF. > > Its value is t > Original value was nil > > You can customize this variable. > This variable was introduced, or its default value was changed, in > version 0.2.0 of the transient package. > > Whether navigation commands are enabled in the transient popup. > > While a transient is active the transient popup buffer is not the > current buffer, making it necessary to use dedicated commands to > act on that buffer itself. If this non-nil, then the following > features are available: > > - "" moves the cursor to the previous suffix. > "" moves the cursor to the next suffix. > "RET" invokes the suffix the cursor is on. > - "" invokes the clicked on suffix. > - "C-s" and "C-r" start isearch in the popup buffer. > > > Rudolf Adamkovi=810=8D0 writes: > > Philip Kaludercic writes: > > On the other hand something has always felt off about > transient, in > the sense that it is breaking some expected behaviour or couldn't > pin-point yet, but just unconsciously stumble over.=20 > > > This is exactly how I feel about the "modern" interfaces in Emacs. I > reported a bug in Embark recently, and because I could not select and > copy the text, I ended up re-typing the text that was right in front > of me in Emacs. Say what? For me, Emacs is a program where I expect to > never waste time re-typing anything. Magit has a similar feel to it, > and I can never be sure if the program will allow me to select text in > the diverse parts of its user interface. In my opinion, such > uncertainty is bad for power users. I would expect this from Apple or > Microsoft software, because their latest =A1=B0UX designers=A1=B1 surely = know > better than anyone, but in Emacs? > > > I am not sure if this is something specific to modern interfaces, or > rather an overreaching when it comes to binding. After a while I managed > to "pin-point" what was irritating me, and it was the missing ability to > search (something that I seem to do so passively that i didn't even > notice it). Having C-s work is especially useful when there are a lot of > transient options. This cannot be solved by binding C-s manually, > as just because that might work for me, there is some other behaviour > someone else is expecting (eg. your example of selecting and copying > text). > > What I understand transient and certain other packages do is basically > override most keys, even those it doesn't use. This is more invasive > than special-mode, that just doesn't bind self-insert-command to most > keys. What I wonder is why this is done/why it might be necessary. > > R+ > --=20 Thanks, --Raman(I Search, I Find, I Misplace, I Research) =817=A94 Id: kg:/m/0285kf1 =950=DC8