From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "T.V Raman" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2023 19:59:41 -0800 Message-ID: References: <46ab3c7d-d820-4bb4-8ec4-97c614d7c8a0@alphapapa.net> <871qd8sfdx.fsf@posteo.net> <838r7g8pys.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcbrgnr.fsf@posteo.net> <25924.21015.19614.951576@orion.rgrjr.com> <87bkc4jpja.fsf@dataswamp.org> <12da6bcb-1818-7fbe-12af-8d4607724332@gutov.dev> <878r77399z.fsf@web.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="3327"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Michael Heerdegen Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 09 05:00:52 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r0wDs-0000lR-C9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 05:00:52 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r0wCu-0004LA-BM; Wed, 08 Nov 2023 22:59:52 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r0wCs-0004Kn-8a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Nov 2023 22:59:50 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pf1-x432.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::432]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r0wCq-0005Ye-KT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Nov 2023 22:59:49 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pf1-x432.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-6b44befac59so1172932b3a.0 for ; Wed, 08 Nov 2023 19:59:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20230601; t=1699502387; x=1700107187; darn=gnu.org; h=mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=PAxtA598e07x287Qy/XfDxC9czvguCN4QJn1Id0EhRE=; b=L3r+nYwOIYOVljBNcXZBs2dA+eneUS8WTK17Iom9bd63olOlc9UNm+t3Qxd8dzLfoF te22o05tBzHl6YndEhXmZGpdIAV5DeRUGs7cI+zDOx5dZZ+XuxcIl27PFigmjfMdCerA 91onHPYcWwdl6yEVoB538L2Julw28HjahE2vCzLpCHmthNHZMZlPR+vWgmPB9fo1FOm7 i05nCk/8ifybcy7km/p3589yW00IK5nMfN3L0AomTQ3hSJ0NE5gtYDdy/HBCGg/788D7 /9FYtF5yFAay/4zT5IO4aQeR+zWQROq5F2lLHId/2NoePTmf/BKCIhVZ6tELBVjEcic9 J+bA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1699502387; x=1700107187; h=mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=PAxtA598e07x287Qy/XfDxC9czvguCN4QJn1Id0EhRE=; b=qGyXDJQlPV6mgEgOoqElSFlWrdjZRFBOsGtu+FPWgf8qHn+PNR9GKVFm4VfuE3OtFJ kQ1IrGF9aw30eUfMi3aMhVCpMEtwR6ZCoHg4EN8ydtCZ9x++q5j/LDu4lPOFeBRBZE1c S4BPn18VAUW/Bi2t6twzldLdDKyivQjmea3Rac+uYrWu4wwrTusEP+nsB91QrehPB6gC uon7lMRT9MuEdNiEaGG7gbiGsQgCpOO2dPBdAo7NgeOPqRQjLPXL3PZehE7YeH2lfv+r CToM8N+8nrtRb1V4o7e4Pe6u01jo91K2VC+kyc67hGsz0vAcB6JlqlvxYqYn9kPIXDkt /E3g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YykYCHFDVYDOGCeiX6ij15B9ao1SLbdjJJGuvgRYUcjm6f0p8Ra iGC+XU+7YJ5vXb9m4r3qyqzx0ZTS75csIZoVAtXmRQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFMuwnTaiwWTIsa+C4t8ThLBp4RQYz0tay4g8h2mdJvVLy2l0YYHZ0wv/pjf0t6v1eOytPxgg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a21:999b:b0:17a:4871:63fd with SMTP id ve27-20020a056a21999b00b0017a487163fdmr6037656pzb.0.1699502386532; Wed, 08 Nov 2023 19:59:46 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from raman9 ([2601:646:9e02:3290:eb36:334d:1d0f:471e]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ka19-20020a056a00939300b006905f6bfc37sm9662266pfb.31.2023.11.08.19.59.44 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 08 Nov 2023 19:59:45 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <878r77399z.fsf@web.de> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Thu, 09 Nov 2023 04:17:28 +0100") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::432; envelope-from=raman@google.com; helo=mail-pf1-x432.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -175 X-Spam_score: -17.6 X-Spam_bar: ----------------- X-Spam_report: (-17.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312378 Archived-At: Michael Heerdegen writes: One more fan of cl, and cl-libs is a good solution and a nice compromise between having the expressiveness of cl, without loading all of cl at runtime. Creating and migrating to cl-libs was a large effort: A. For the creators of cl-libs who carefully did the refactoring, and for B: Package authors who paid attention to the "cl used at runtime " warning to properly namespace-qualify cl calls, and remove (require 'cl) So I dont quite understand the apparent desire to negate all of that work? > >> I like cl-lib (it could be optimized better still, but it's good for >> certain uses), and this discussion doesn't look like it will reach any >> constructive conclusion, so it didn't seem worth it to spend time on >> it. > > I also find it a bit exaggerating: cl-lib is large, but the majority of > its uses in Emacs are from a small subset. In cases where it's > objectively beneficial, using its stuff can make the code actually > better readable. But everybody should, as always, just select the > simplest tools when coding. Please let's avoid a discussion about what > different opinions about readability and simplicity we have. > > But of course: when we continue to migrate the most useful stuff in > cl-lib out to other libraries (like we did with generic functions, > generalized variables, sequence functions, ...), answering this question > might become harder in the future. > > Michael. > > --