* Bug Database? @ 2006-10-17 21:49 Nick Roberts 2006-10-17 23:17 ` David Reitter ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Nick Roberts @ 2006-10-17 21:49 UTC (permalink / raw) As a point of reference GDB has 1218 open bugs in its database and still gets released roughly on a six monthly cycle. Bugs are generally fixed by those who find them most inconvenient. I'm quite sure if they all had to be fixed first it would never get released. I use Emacs every day and I must say I've not encountered any of the bugs currently in FOR-RELEASE. How about Emacs using a bug database? GDB uses GNATS, but it could be Bugzilla. I think the important thing is that reported bugs don't get lost between the cracks, not that every bug is fixed before the release. -- Nick http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-17 21:49 Bug Database? Nick Roberts @ 2006-10-17 23:17 ` David Reitter 2006-10-18 4:24 ` Chong Yidong 2006-10-18 10:42 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 0 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: David Reitter @ 2006-10-17 23:17 UTC (permalink / raw) On 17 Oct 2006, at 22:49, Nick Roberts wrote: > I'm quite sure if they all had to be fixed first > it would never get released. I use Emacs every day and I must say > I've not > encountered any of the bugs currently in FOR-RELEASE. For about 18 months, I've been releasing a downstream project with binary builds of patched and augmented GNU Emacs CVS checkouts (http://aquamacs.org). We have around 3,500 different users in any given week and more than 10,000 application starts a day. We're doing monthly or bi-monthly releases. The users have proven to be a useful test community. Over time, we have seen a lot of bug reports from users, some of which concerning bugs due to the use of functions in Emacs that wouldn't otherwise be used in a straight CVS build. I've generated or checked and passed on about 150 bug reports as a result, as my e-mail archive tells me. (Almost all of them were quickly fixed by maintainers!) It appears that the bug reports I am receiving (which actually concern issues in the Emacs core) have been getting a lot more scarce over the past couple of months, even though our user base has been growing. That's a good sign. That said, good quality is what people are expecting from a project that doesn't release very often... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-17 21:49 Bug Database? Nick Roberts 2006-10-17 23:17 ` David Reitter @ 2006-10-18 4:24 ` Chong Yidong 2006-10-18 4:39 ` Nick Roberts 2006-10-18 10:42 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Chong Yidong @ 2006-10-18 4:24 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Nick Roberts <nickrob@snap.net.nz> writes: > I think the important thing is that reported bugs don't get lost > between the cracks, not that every bug is fixed before the release. We've been through this before. Everyone agrees with your statement except RMS. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-18 4:24 ` Chong Yidong @ 2006-10-18 4:39 ` Nick Roberts 2006-10-18 6:22 ` Jan Djärv 2006-10-18 10:41 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 2 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Nick Roberts @ 2006-10-18 4:39 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel > > I think the important thing is that reported bugs don't get lost > > between the cracks, not that every bug is fixed before the release. > > We've been through this before. Everyone agrees with your statement > except RMS. Yes, but I'm also suggesting use of a bug database to ensure that reported bugs don't get lost. That has also come up before and was considered unnecessary, but at that time reported bugs were only recorded in the archives. -- Nick http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-18 4:39 ` Nick Roberts @ 2006-10-18 6:22 ` Jan Djärv 2006-10-18 17:54 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-18 10:41 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Jan Djärv @ 2006-10-18 6:22 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Chong Yidong, emacs-devel Nick Roberts skrev: > > > I think the important thing is that reported bugs don't get lost > > > between the cracks, not that every bug is fixed before the release. > > > > We've been through this before. Everyone agrees with your statement > > except RMS. > > Yes, but I'm also suggesting use of a bug database to ensure that reported bugs > don't get lost. That has also come up before and was considered unnecessary, > but at that time reported bugs were only recorded in the archives. > FWIW I think such a database (Bugzilla?) would help. Right now I have bugs that shall be fixed to the release (just found out I forgot to do the UTF-8 in selection thingy), bugs/features that are for after the release, and bugs that are hard to reproduce, but are on some kind of watch-list. A database would be a good place to clearly mark the type of bug/feature request, and the planned release. A more structured FOR-RELEASE, but not just for the next release. It would hopefully be easier to search and browse than my inbox + Emacs mailing lists. Jan D. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-18 6:22 ` Jan Djärv @ 2006-10-18 17:54 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-18 17:54 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: nickrob, cyd, emacs-devel A database would be a good place to clearly mark the type of bug/feature request, and the planned release. A more structured FOR-RELEASE, but not just for the next release. It would hopefully be easier to search and browse than my inbox + Emacs mailing lists. One advantage of FOR-RELEASE is that it is a text file, and can be read without a net connection. Can we arrange for a bug tracker to provide a list of important bugs as a text file? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-18 4:39 ` Nick Roberts 2006-10-18 6:22 ` Jan Djärv @ 2006-10-18 10:41 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-18 13:35 ` Juanma Barranquero ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-18 10:41 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: cyd, emacs-devel Yes, but I'm also suggesting use of a bug database to ensure that reported bugs don't get lost. That has also come up before and was considered unnecessary, but at that time reported bugs were only recorded in the archives. It would be useful to run a bug tracker, but I have never done so, and I don't know what work for us is required. Do we transfer the bugs into the tracker by hand? If so, who wants to do that? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-18 10:41 ` Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-18 13:35 ` Juanma Barranquero 2006-10-19 6:41 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-18 14:37 ` Nick Roberts 2006-10-20 22:10 ` Michael Olson 2 siblings, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2006-10-18 13:35 UTC (permalink / raw) On 10/18/06, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote: > It would be useful to run a bug tracker, but I have never done so, and > I don't know what work for us is required. There are quite a few issue tracking systems easy to install and easy to manage (RT, for example). CVSTrac also includes a wiki, which is nice. > Do we transfer the bugs into the tracker by hand? Yes, if you want to assign difficulty/priority values to them... > If so, who wants to do that? I don't think just one person should shoulder that, unless we're talking of a few dozens bugs. No need, either. -- /L/e/k/t/u ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-18 13:35 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2006-10-19 6:41 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-19 7:17 ` Juanma Barranquero ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-19 6:41 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel > If so, who wants to do that? I don't think just one person should shoulder that, unless we're talking of a few dozens bugs. No need, either. This is a misunderstanding; I did not say it should be one person. If we are to run a bug tracker, we first need to work out a plan for entering bugs reported by email into the data base. We need to find a person or persons who will do the work. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-19 6:41 ` Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-19 7:17 ` Juanma Barranquero 2006-10-19 8:50 ` Jason Rumney 2006-10-20 5:55 ` Eli Zaretskii 2 siblings, 0 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2006-10-19 7:17 UTC (permalink / raw) On 10/19/06, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote: > This is a misunderstanding; I did not say it should be one person. You're right. I misread "who" as singular (you know, "quien/quienes" is number-inflected in Spanish :) > We need to find a person or persons who will do the work. I'd volunteer to be one (just not The Only One :) -- /L/e/k/t/u ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-19 6:41 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-19 7:17 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2006-10-19 8:50 ` Jason Rumney 2006-10-20 6:06 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-20 5:55 ` Eli Zaretskii 2 siblings, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Jason Rumney @ 2006-10-19 8:50 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Juanma Barranquero, emacs-devel Richard Stallman wrote: > If we are to run a bug tracker, we first need to work out a plan for > entering bugs reported by email into the data base. We need to find a > person or persons who will do the work. > It seems like the sort of job that could easily be automated by a script. In fact, my preference would be to have the script be the only recipient of the emacs-pretest-bug and bug-emacs mail aliases, and to create the entry in the bug database, then add the bug id into the email before forwarding it to the mailing list subscribers. Things like prioritizing and categorizing would still have to be done by hand, but at least there is a guarantee that all bugs make it into the database. Spam might be a problem with that approach, so perhaps only automatically add bugs that are in the format created by report-emacs-bug, and forward incorrectly formatted emails directly to the list for manual addition. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-19 8:50 ` Jason Rumney @ 2006-10-20 6:06 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-20 10:06 ` Jason Rumney 0 siblings, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-20 6:06 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: lekktu, emacs-devel It seems like the sort of job that could easily be automated by a script. Do people get good results, doing this automatically with a script? That would be a fine solution if it works. I was worried about spam, but maybe people are already moderating these lists to remove the spam. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-20 6:06 ` Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-20 10:06 ` Jason Rumney 2006-10-21 2:02 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Jason Rumney @ 2006-10-20 10:06 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: lekktu, emacs-devel Richard Stallman wrote: > It seems like the sort of job that could easily be automated by a > script. > > Do people get good results, doing this automatically with a script? > That would be a fine solution if it works. > > I was worried about spam, but maybe people are already moderating > these lists to remove the spam. > > If the script only entered bug reports that it could parse an Emacs version number out of, then that should prevent spam from getting into the bug database. It would still leave some bug reports that needed to be manually entered, but at least the workload for the volunteers who enter bug reports would be reduced. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-20 10:06 ` Jason Rumney @ 2006-10-21 2:02 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-21 2:02 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: lekktu, emacs-devel If the script only entered bug reports that it could parse an Emacs version number out of, then that should prevent spam from getting into the bug database. It would still leave some bug reports that needed to be manually entered, but at least the workload for the volunteers who enter bug reports would be reduced. That is true. To move forward on this, we need someone to make a clear and specific proposal. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-19 6:41 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-19 7:17 ` Juanma Barranquero 2006-10-19 8:50 ` Jason Rumney @ 2006-10-20 5:55 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-10-20 10:26 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-21 1:31 ` Miles Bader 2 siblings, 2 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-10-20 5:55 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: lekktu, emacs-devel > From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> > Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 02:41:00 -0400 > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > If we are to run a bug tracker, we first need to work out a plan for > entering bugs reported by email into the data base. Usually, it's the other way around: the bugs are reported to the bug-tracker, which then emails them to the list. We could modify report-emacs-bug to use a Web browser (via url, for example) to do that. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-20 5:55 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-10-20 10:26 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-20 17:35 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-10-21 1:31 ` Miles Bader 1 sibling, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-20 10:26 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: lekktu, emacs-devel Usually, it's the other way around: the bugs are reported to the bug-tracker, which then emails them to the list. But we need to provide for people to continue reporting bugs by email. We could modify report-emacs-bug to use a Web browser (via url, for example) to do that. That is no good. It wouldn't work at all unless there is an active net connection at the moment. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-20 10:26 ` Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-20 17:35 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-10-21 12:04 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-10-20 17:35 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: lekktu, emacs-devel > From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> > CC: lekktu@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 06:26:49 -0400 > > But we need to provide for people to continue reporting bugs by email. > > We could modify report-emacs-bug to use a Web browser (via url, for > example) to do that. > > That is no good. It wouldn't work at all unless there is an active > net connection at the moment. I don't see why that would be any worse than what we have now. First, not every email setup works off-line, either. Second, there are Web browsers that, like some email software, _can_ be set to work off-line. Third, most users have active net connections most of the time. And forth, almost no one in their right mind will try sending a bug report via the net when they know they have no net connection. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-20 17:35 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-10-21 12:04 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-21 12:04 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: lekktu, emacs-devel And forth, almost no one in their right mind will try sending a bug report via the net when they know they have no net connection. I agree with you, but I am concerned about a different point. I am worried that they will NOT SEND the bug report. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-20 5:55 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-10-20 10:26 ` Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-21 1:31 ` Miles Bader 2006-10-21 9:40 ` Eli Zaretskii ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Miles Bader @ 2006-10-21 1:31 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: lekktu, rms, emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: > Usually, it's the other way around: the bugs are reported to the > bug-tracker, which then emails them to the list. > > We could modify report-emacs-bug to use a Web browser (via url, for > example) to do that. While it's nice to have the _ability_ to submit bugs via the web (casual users might find it easier to deal with such an interface), I think email reporting is mandatory. It's also nice to have something like debian's "reportbug" program, which uses a simple UI on the user's machine to prompt for details, but sends email to actually report the bug. Basically, choice is good. Several reasons for this: (1) Email is available in situations where web access is not (the reverse is true too of course: again, choice is good). (2) Typical web bug-tracker interfaces are completely awful (bugzilla, I'm looking at you...) and the lack of integretation with one's familiar environment annoying. Clumsy web interfaces are especially frustrating when reporting many bugs, because one must painfully labor through the same bad interface repeatedly -- when email is supported, one can streamline the process greatly (elisp is great for this). (3) Many bugs involve "conversations", with back-and-forth between developers (often more than one) and bug reports. Web-only interfaces like bugzilla make this very awkward -- while it wil _send_ email to indicate a new response in "the conversation" about a bug, one must then go to the web page and fill in a form to reply! The natural thing, simply replying (to the email'd report) via one's mail client, isn't supported! -Miles -- "Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we're just making him madder and madder." -- Homer Simpson ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-21 1:31 ` Miles Bader @ 2006-10-21 9:40 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-10-21 12:48 ` Miles Bader 2006-10-21 9:42 ` Andreas Schwab 2006-10-21 12:05 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-10-21 9:40 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: lekktu, rms, emacs-devel > Cc: rms@gnu.org, lekktu@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> > Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 10:31:59 +0900 > > While it's nice to have the _ability_ to submit bugs via the web (casual > users might find it easier to deal with such an interface), I think > email reporting is mandatory. It's also nice to have something like > debian's "reportbug" program, which uses a simple UI on the user's > machine to prompt for details, but sends email to actually report the > bug. Basically, choice is good. > > Several reasons for this: > > (1) Email is available in situations where web access is not (the > reverse is true too of course: again, choice is good). This goes both ways, as you say. > (2) Typical web bug-tracker interfaces are completely awful (bugzilla, > I'm looking at you...) I was suggesting a specific interface: the Savannah bug tracker. I think its interface is reasonable, please take a look. > (3) Many bugs involve "conversations", with back-and-forth between > developers (often more than one) and bug reports. Web-only > interfaces like bugzilla make this very awkward -- while it wil > _send_ email to indicate a new response in "the conversation" about > a bug, one must then go to the web page and fill in a form to reply! > The natural thing, simply replying (to the email'd report) via one's > mail client, isn't supported! I don't see this as such a disadvantage: if you do both through Emacs, why does it matter? Anyway, while there are disadvantages to what I suggested, there's one very significant advantage: we can use the Savannah bug tracking interface, which is already used by quite a few projects and is maintained by the FSF personnel. The other solutions will require us to invent everything and will put a much more serious burden on the Emacs maintenance team. What if whoever volunteers for this job will some day become unavailable? A bug-tracking system is not something that we can afford to be down. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-21 9:40 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-10-21 12:48 ` Miles Bader 2006-10-22 16:36 ` David Kastrup 0 siblings, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Miles Bader @ 2006-10-21 12:48 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: lekktu, rms, emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: >> (2) Typical web bug-tracker interfaces are completely awful (bugzilla, >> I'm looking at you...) > > I was suggesting a specific interface: the Savannah bug tracker. I > think its interface is reasonable, please take a look. Yes, I've used it quite a bit. It suffers from the usual problems of web interfaces -- for filing lots of bugs, it was quite painful (often I would want to file like 10 bugs simultaneously, and I had fill in ever single damn field again and again... I really grew to hate the savannah bug tracker after a while). It's obvious that there are advantages to both, which is why I'd _really_ want a system that _does both_ (e.g., email and the web GUI are different interfaces to the same core system). And indeed, I know, no particularly great packages that satisfy that. It sucks, but there you have it. -Miles -- Run away! Run away! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-21 12:48 ` Miles Bader @ 2006-10-22 16:36 ` David Kastrup 0 siblings, 0 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2006-10-22 16:36 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: lekktu, Eli Zaretskii, rms, emacs-devel Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes: > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: >>> (2) Typical web bug-tracker interfaces are completely awful (bugzilla, >>> I'm looking at you...) >> >> I was suggesting a specific interface: the Savannah bug tracker. I >> think its interface is reasonable, please take a look. > > Yes, I've used it quite a bit. It suffers from the usual problems of > web interfaces -- for filing lots of bugs, it was quite painful (often I > would want to file like 10 bugs simultaneously, and I had fill in ever > single damn field again and again... I really grew to hate the savannah > bug tracker after a while). When was the last time you filed 10 bugs simultaneously to the Emacs bug list? -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-21 1:31 ` Miles Bader 2006-10-21 9:40 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-10-21 9:42 ` Andreas Schwab 2006-10-21 12:50 ` Miles Bader 2006-10-21 17:37 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-21 12:05 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 2 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Andreas Schwab @ 2006-10-21 9:42 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes: > The natural thing, simply replying (to the email'd report) via one's > mail client, isn't supported! Actually some do, like GCC's bugzilla. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany PGP key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-21 9:42 ` Andreas Schwab @ 2006-10-21 12:50 ` Miles Bader 2006-10-21 17:37 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Miles Bader @ 2006-10-21 12:50 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Andreas Schwab <schwab@suse.de> writes: >> The natural thing, simply replying (to the email'd report) via one's >> mail client, isn't supported! > > Actually some do, like GCC's bugzilla. Cool! That would be a wonderful improvement over "classic" bugzilla. Maybe that's a system worth considering? -Miles -- `To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems' --Homer J. Simpson ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-21 9:42 ` Andreas Schwab 2006-10-21 12:50 ` Miles Bader @ 2006-10-21 17:37 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-21 18:07 ` Andreas Schwab 1 sibling, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-21 17:37 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel, miles Actually some do, like GCC's bugzilla. Could you tell us more? Does Savannah need to install the version of Bugzilla that GCC uses, in order to provide the same capability? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-21 17:37 ` Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-21 18:07 ` Andreas Schwab 2006-10-23 5:11 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Andreas Schwab @ 2006-10-21 18:07 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel, miles Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > Actually some do, like GCC's bugzilla. > > Could you tell us more? Does Savannah need to install the version > of Bugzilla that GCC uses, in order to provide the same capability? Savannah does not use Bugzilla, AFAIK. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany PGP key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-21 18:07 ` Andreas Schwab @ 2006-10-23 5:11 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-23 8:52 ` Andreas Schwab 2006-10-23 12:02 ` Alfred M. Szmidt 0 siblings, 2 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-23 5:11 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel, miles > Could you tell us more? Does Savannah need to install the version > of Bugzilla that GCC uses, in order to provide the same capability? Savannah does not use Bugzilla, AFAIK. What bug tracker does Savannah use? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-23 5:11 ` Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-23 8:52 ` Andreas Schwab 2006-10-23 18:38 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-23 12:02 ` Alfred M. Szmidt 1 sibling, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Andreas Schwab @ 2006-10-23 8:52 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel, miles Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > What bug tracker does Savannah use? Why not ask the savannah hackers? How should I know? Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany PGP key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-23 8:52 ` Andreas Schwab @ 2006-10-23 18:38 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-23 18:38 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel, miles > What bug tracker does Savannah use? Why not ask the savannah hackers? How should I know? Since you said it wasn't Bugzilla, I thought you did know. I am going to write to them about the issue, but I figured if you knew I could ask you first. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-23 5:11 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-23 8:52 ` Andreas Schwab @ 2006-10-23 12:02 ` Alfred M. Szmidt 2006-10-24 17:41 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Alfred M. Szmidt @ 2006-10-23 12:02 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: schwab, miles, emacs-devel > Could you tell us more? Does Savannah need to install the > version of Bugzilla that GCC uses, in order to provide the > same capability? That would be the case, yes. Or add such features to the bug tracker that Savannah is using. Savannah does not use Bugzilla, AFAIK. What bug tracker does Savannah use? They use the one included in Savane (it doesn't have a special name). It is also web-based only, so you cannot use email to enter, or reply to bug reports. There is also GNATS, the GNU Bug Tracker System. But I don't know the difference between GNATS and Bugzilla to comment about it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-23 12:02 ` Alfred M. Szmidt @ 2006-10-24 17:41 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-24 17:41 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: schwab, miles, emacs-devel Thanks for the info. Now I know what to say to the savannah hackers. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-21 1:31 ` Miles Bader 2006-10-21 9:40 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-10-21 9:42 ` Andreas Schwab @ 2006-10-21 12:05 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 0 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-21 12:05 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: lekktu, eliz, emacs-devel (3) Many bugs involve "conversations", with back-and-forth between developers (often more than one) and bug reports. Web-only interfaces like bugzilla make this very awkward -- while it wil _send_ email to indicate a new response in "the conversation" about a bug, one must then go to the web page and fill in a form to reply! The natural thing, simply replying (to the email'd report) via one's mail client, isn't supported! This implies that I would usually be unable to mark a bug report closed in Bugzilla. I would usually have to email someone else to do it for me. I don't like that. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-18 10:41 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-18 13:35 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2006-10-18 14:37 ` Nick Roberts 2006-10-18 15:20 ` joakim 2006-10-19 6:41 ` Bug Database? Richard Stallman 2006-10-20 22:10 ` Michael Olson 2 siblings, 2 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Nick Roberts @ 2006-10-18 14:37 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: cyd, emacs-devel > Yes, but I'm also suggesting use of a bug database to ensure that > reported bugs don't get lost. That has also come up before and was > considered unnecessary, but at that time reported bugs were only > recorded in the archives. > > It would be useful to run a bug tracker, but I have never done so, and > I don't know what work for us is required. It could be as easy as turning on the bug tracker for Emacs in Savannah. I don't know how good/bad it is but it must be an improvement on FOR-RELEASE. At the other end of the spectrum someone could presumably set up Bugzilla for the whole of the GNU Project/All Savannah projects. Although that might conflict with projects that have already turned their tracker on, I would guess you would end up with a superior system. I suggest asking your sysadmin people. > Do we transfer the bugs > into the tracker by hand? If so, who wants to do that? There are only half a dozen or so that need to be done by us. I guess we would direct people to enter future ones into the database themselves. -- Nick http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-18 14:37 ` Nick Roberts @ 2006-10-18 15:20 ` joakim 2006-10-18 16:41 ` Emacs-based web browser (was Re: Bug Database?) Magnus Henoch 2006-10-19 6:41 ` Bug Database? Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: joakim @ 2006-10-18 15:20 UTC (permalink / raw) Nick Roberts <nickrob@snap.net.nz> writes: > > Yes, but I'm also suggesting use of a bug database to ensure that > > reported bugs don't get lost. That has also come up before and was > > considered unnecessary, but at that time reported bugs were only > > recorded in the archives. > > > > It would be useful to run a bug tracker, but I have never done so, and > > I don't know what work for us is required. > > It could be as easy as turning on the bug tracker for Emacs in Savannah. I > don't know how good/bad it is but it must be an improvement on FOR-RELEASE. We use the Savannah bugtracker for MLDonkey. Its quite acceptable, IMHO. Sure, there are better trackers(like "Trac") but why overdo it? (One problem is that I cant seem to login to Savannah with emacs-w3m anymore. I reported this somewhere, but dont quite remember the status of it.) Punching in a dozen of bugs from a file is doable and I could do it. > At the other end of the spectrum someone could presumably set up Bugzilla for > the whole of the GNU Project/All Savannah projects. Although that might > conflict with projects that have already turned their tracker on, I would > guess you would end up with a superior system. I suggest asking your > sysadmin people. > > > Do we transfer the bugs > > into the tracker by hand? If so, who wants to do that? > > There are only half a dozen or so that need to be done by us. I guess we > would direct people to enter future ones into the database themselves. > > -- > Nick http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob -- Joakim Verona ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Emacs-based web browser (was Re: Bug Database?) 2006-10-18 15:20 ` joakim @ 2006-10-18 16:41 ` Magnus Henoch 2006-10-18 17:26 ` Emacs-based web browser Stefan Monnier 0 siblings, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Magnus Henoch @ 2006-10-18 16:41 UTC (permalink / raw) joakim@verona.se writes: > (One problem is that I cant seem to login to Savannah with emacs-w3m > anymore. I reported this somewhere, but dont quite remember the status > of it.) I invite you to try the CVS version of Emacs/W3 (not to be confused with emacs-w3m). Bugs are being fixed. Magnus ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs-based web browser 2006-10-18 16:41 ` Emacs-based web browser (was Re: Bug Database?) Magnus Henoch @ 2006-10-18 17:26 ` Stefan Monnier 2006-10-18 17:36 ` Lennart Borgman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2006-10-18 17:26 UTC (permalink / raw) >> (One problem is that I cant seem to login to Savannah with emacs-w3m >> anymore. I reported this somewhere, but dont quite remember the status >> of it.) > I invite you to try the CVS version of Emacs/W3 (not to be confused > with emacs-w3m). Bugs are being fixed. Cool ;-) Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs-based web browser 2006-10-18 17:26 ` Emacs-based web browser Stefan Monnier @ 2006-10-18 17:36 ` Lennart Borgman 2006-10-18 18:02 ` Magnus Henoch 0 siblings, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2006-10-18 17:36 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Stefan Monnier wrote: >>> (One problem is that I cant seem to login to Savannah with emacs-w3m >>> anymore. I reported this somewhere, but dont quite remember the status >>> of it.) >>> > > >> I invite you to try the CVS version of Emacs/W3 (not to be confused >> with emacs-w3m). Bugs are being fixed. >> > > Cool ;-) > > > Stefan > And how do you know, where did you find it? ;-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs-based web browser 2006-10-18 17:36 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2006-10-18 18:02 ` Magnus Henoch 0 siblings, 0 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Magnus Henoch @ 2006-10-18 18:02 UTC (permalink / raw) Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> writes: > And how do you know, where did you find it? ;-) I just updated the web page at http://www.gnu.org/software/w3/ to reflect reality. Magnus ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-18 14:37 ` Nick Roberts 2006-10-18 15:20 ` joakim @ 2006-10-19 6:41 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-19 8:30 ` Nick Roberts 1 sibling, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-19 6:41 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: cyd, emacs-devel There are only half a dozen or so that need to be done by us. I guess we would direct people to enter future ones into the database themselves. We seem to be miscommunicating. People will continue reporting bugs to bug-gnu-emacs and to emacs-pretest-bugs. How will we transfer those bug reports into the bug tracking system? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-19 6:41 ` Bug Database? Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-19 8:30 ` Nick Roberts 2006-10-20 6:06 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-20 7:45 ` Yavor Doganov 0 siblings, 2 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Nick Roberts @ 2006-10-19 8:30 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: cyd, emacs-devel > People will continue reporting bugs to bug-gnu-emacs and to > emacs-pretest-bugs. How will we transfer those bug reports > into the bug tracking system? Only significant bugs that can't be immediately fixed need to be entered, although it wouldn't matter if others were too as they can easily be closed. You could just see it as an additional tool. As a start why not just ask the Savannah Hackers to turn on the bug tracker for Emacs? Then people who want to use it could file bugs there, and you could keep your own record in FOR-RELEASE. -- Nick http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-19 8:30 ` Nick Roberts @ 2006-10-20 6:06 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-20 7:53 ` Nick Roberts 2006-10-20 7:45 ` Yavor Doganov 1 sibling, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-20 6:06 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: cyd, emacs-devel Only significant bugs that can't be immediately fixed need to be entered, although it wouldn't matter if others were too as they can easily be closed. I agree that "enter bugs if not fixed immediately" would give results, but it still takes work. Who wants to do this work? You could just see it as an additional tool. As a start why not just ask the Savannah Hackers to turn on the bug tracker for Emacs? Then people who want to use it could file bugs there, and you could keep your own record in FOR-RELEASE. This much would be easy to do. Would this result in having some bugs in the bug tracker and other bugs reported on bug-gnu-emacs? If we did not systematically enter the emailed bug reports into the bug tracker, would confusion result? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-20 6:06 ` Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-20 7:53 ` Nick Roberts 0 siblings, 0 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Nick Roberts @ 2006-10-20 7:53 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: cyd, emacs-devel > Only significant bugs that can't be immediately fixed need to be entered, > although it wouldn't matter if others were too as they can easily be closed. > > I agree that "enter bugs if not fixed immediately" would give results, > but it still takes work. Who wants to do this work? Presumably whoever is interested in seeing the bug fixed, the original poster, a developer who can't see a fix, I don't know. > You could just see it as an additional tool. As a start why not just > ask the Savannah Hackers to turn on the bug tracker for Emacs? Then > people who want to use it could file bugs there, and you could keep your > own record in FOR-RELEASE. > > This much would be easy to do. Would this result in having some bugs > in the bug tracker and other bugs reported on bug-gnu-emacs? > > If we did not systematically enter the emailed bug reports into the > bug tracker, would confusion result? These questions can only be answered by trying a tracker out. I can only say in GDB it helps me find (and fix) old bugs that I probably wouldn't know about through the archives. It's now over five years since the last (mainline) release. I think a tracker will help with the release cycle. If you think Emacs should be bug free no matter how long it takes to make a release, then I guess a tracker may not be of much use. -- Nick http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-19 8:30 ` Nick Roberts 2006-10-20 6:06 ` Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-20 7:45 ` Yavor Doganov 2006-10-23 10:45 ` Sascha Wilde 1 sibling, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Yavor Doganov @ 2006-10-20 7:45 UTC (permalink / raw) В Thu, 19 Oct 2006 21:30:06 +1300, Nick Roberts написа: > As a start why not just ask the Savannah Hackers to turn on the bug > tracker for Emacs? That's not necessary, the project admins can activate it. > Then people who want to use it could file bugs there, and you could > keep your own record in FOR-RELEASE. I anticipate that what RMS (and possibly others who work mostly offline) means is that setting up such a bug tracker will require extra efforts, and possibly will lead to duplicated entries. Perhaps it will confuse users too, as there will be two ways to report bugs and they won't know which is the canonical one. IMVHO, what's needed is a bug tracking system that is entirely controlled by email. Thus, people like RMS will continue to work as now, and it will be possible to query/search the BTS. AFAIK, only debbugs offers this (and partly RT, but assigning/resolving bugs depends on the web interface). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-20 7:45 ` Yavor Doganov @ 2006-10-23 10:45 ` Sascha Wilde 0 siblings, 0 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Sascha Wilde @ 2006-10-23 10:45 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Yavor Doganov <yavor@doganov.org> wrote: > IMVHO, what's needed is a bug tracking system that is entirely > controlled by email. Thus, people like RMS will continue to work as > now, and it will be possible to query/search the BTS. AFAIK, only > debbugs offers this (and partly RT, but assigning/resolving bugs > depends on the web interface). I do strongly agree, that a tracker that supports full control via email is needed. I would suggest roundup as a possible candidate, which allows any option, which can be set in the web interface to be set via a simple keyword in the subject line of emails, too. cheers sascha -- Sascha Wilde Programmer - A red-eyed, mumbling mammal capable of conversing with inanimate objects. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-18 10:41 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-18 13:35 ` Juanma Barranquero 2006-10-18 14:37 ` Nick Roberts @ 2006-10-20 22:10 ` Michael Olson 2 siblings, 0 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Michael Olson @ 2006-10-20 22:10 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 988 bytes --] Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > Yes, but I'm also suggesting use of a bug database to ensure > that reported bugs don't get lost. That has also come up before > and was considered unnecessary, but at that time reported bugs > were only recorded in the archives. > > It would be useful to run a bug tracker, but I have never done so, and > I don't know what work for us is required. Do we transfer the bugs > into the tracker by hand? If so, who wants to do that? You could just use Savannah's bug-tracker by enabling it on Emacs' project page (https://savannah.gnu.org/projects/emacs/). -- Michael Olson -- FSF Associate Member #652 -- http://www.mwolson.org/ Interests: Emacs Lisp, text markup, protocols -- Jabber: mwolson_at_hcoop.net /` |\ | | | Projects: Emacs, Muse, ERC, EMMS, Planner, ErBot, DVC |_] | \| |_| Reclaim your digital rights by eliminating DRM. See http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm for details. [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 188 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 142 bytes --] _______________________________________________ Emacs-devel mailing list Emacs-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-devel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-17 21:49 Bug Database? Nick Roberts 2006-10-17 23:17 ` David Reitter 2006-10-18 4:24 ` Chong Yidong @ 2006-10-18 10:42 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-18 14:47 ` Nick Roberts 2 siblings, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-18 10:42 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel As a point of reference GDB has 1218 open bugs in its database and still gets released roughly on a six monthly cycle. I suspect it means there is insufficient priority to fixing GDB bugs. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-18 10:42 ` Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-18 14:47 ` Nick Roberts 2006-10-19 6:41 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-19 7:04 ` Frank Schmitt 0 siblings, 2 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Nick Roberts @ 2006-10-18 14:47 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel > As a point of reference GDB has 1218 open bugs in its database and still > gets released roughly on a six monthly cycle. > > I suspect it means there is insufficient priority to fixing GDB bugs. It depends how you measure things. They have more people using a recent version of GDB and more people fixing bugs. There's a clear message: if you want it fixed for the next version then you may have to fix it yourself. -- Nick http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-18 14:47 ` Nick Roberts @ 2006-10-19 6:41 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-19 7:04 ` Frank Schmitt 1 sibling, 0 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-19 6:41 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel > I suspect it means there is insufficient priority to fixing GDB bugs. It depends how you measure things. They have more people using a recent version of GDB and more people fixing bugs. I don't understand what you mean by that. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-18 14:47 ` Nick Roberts 2006-10-19 6:41 ` Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-19 7:04 ` Frank Schmitt 2006-10-19 9:26 ` David Kastrup ` (3 more replies) 1 sibling, 4 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Frank Schmitt @ 2006-10-19 7:04 UTC (permalink / raw) Nick Roberts <nickrob@snap.net.nz> writes: > > As a point of reference GDB has 1218 open bugs in its database and still > > gets released roughly on a six monthly cycle. > > > > I suspect it means there is insufficient priority to fixing GDB bugs. > > It depends how you measure things. They have more people using a recent > version of GDB and more people fixing bugs. There's a clear message: if you > want it fixed for the next version then you may have to fix it yourself. Which results in the fact that gdb is since years completely unusable for C++ programs relying on templated functions (so basically all C++ programs which aren't just pimped C). So most C++ developers I know have switched to the "free as in free beer but not free as in free software" debugger from Sun Studio which in contrast to gdb works really well. -- Did you ever realize how much text fits in eighty columns? If you now consider that a signature usually consists of up to four lines, this gives you enough space to spread a tremendous amount of information with your messages. So seize this opportunity and don't waste your signature with bullshit nobody will read. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-19 7:04 ` Frank Schmitt @ 2006-10-19 9:26 ` David Kastrup 2006-10-19 10:07 ` Nick Roberts ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2006-10-19 9:26 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Frank Schmitt <ich@frank-schmitt.net> writes: > Nick Roberts <nickrob@snap.net.nz> writes: > >> > As a point of reference GDB has 1218 open bugs in its >> > database and still gets released roughly on a six monthly >> > cycle. >> > >> > I suspect it means there is insufficient priority to fixing GDB bugs. >> >> It depends how you measure things. They have more people using a >> recent version of GDB and more people fixing bugs. There's a clear >> message: if you want it fixed for the next version then you may >> have to fix it yourself. > > Which results in the fact that gdb is since years completely unusable > for C++ programs relying on templated functions (so basically all C++ > programs which aren't just pimped C). One could argue that C++ was more in need of fixing than GDB... Unfortunately, C++ got standardized before we could standardize GDB. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-19 7:04 ` Frank Schmitt 2006-10-19 9:26 ` David Kastrup @ 2006-10-19 10:07 ` Nick Roberts 2006-10-19 11:46 ` Frank Schmitt 2006-10-20 2:19 ` Miles Bader 2006-10-20 6:01 ` Eli Zaretskii 3 siblings, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Nick Roberts @ 2006-10-19 10:07 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel > > It depends how you measure things. They have more people using a recent > > version of GDB and more people fixing bugs. There's a clear message: if > > you want it fixed for the next version then you may have to fix it > > yourself. > > Which results in the fact that gdb is since years completely unusable > for C++ programs relying on templated functions (so basically all C++ > programs which aren't just pimped C). We're moving a bit off-topic but I think refusing to release it until it worked well for templated functions etc would just mean it didn't get released at all. > So most C++ developers I know have switched to the "free as in free beer > but not free as in free software" debugger from Sun Studio which in > contrast to gdb works really well. People can choose not to fix GDB, it's a voluntary project. -- Nick http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-19 10:07 ` Nick Roberts @ 2006-10-19 11:46 ` Frank Schmitt 2006-10-19 12:55 ` Juanma Barranquero ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Frank Schmitt @ 2006-10-19 11:46 UTC (permalink / raw) Nick Roberts <nickrob@snap.net.nz> writes: > > So most C++ developers I know have switched to the "free as in free beer > > but not free as in free software" debugger from Sun Studio which in > > contrast to gdb works really well. > > People can choose not to fix GDB, it's a voluntary project. First for those who have no idea about what we are talking about: In C++ you can write something like ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- template <typename imgtype1, typename imgtype2> void doSomething(imgtype1* img1, imgtype2* img2){ //do something with image img1 and image img2 which can both be either //8 or 16 bits per pixel } int main(){ unsigned char* image1 = getRawImageData1(); int bpp1 = getBitsPerPixel1(); unsigned char* image2 = getRawImageData2(): int bpp2 = getBitsPerPixel2(); if (bpp1==8 && bpp2==8) doSomething<unsigned char, unsigned char>(image1, image2); if (bpp1==8 && bpp2==16) doSomething<unsigned char, unsigned short>(image1, (unsigned short*)image2); if (bpp1==16 && bpp2==8) doSomething<unsigned short, unsigned char>((unsigned short*)image1, image2); if (bpp1==16 && bpp2==16) doSomething<unsigned short, unsigned short>((unsigned short*)image1, (unsigned short*)image2); } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you compile this, four instances of the function doSomething are generated, in each imgtype1 and imgtype2 is substituted with a real data type. If you now start the program in gdb and say "break doSomething", the breakpoint will always be set at the first instance of the function which gdb finds. If this isn't the instance your program is just using, you can't debug the function. (Ok, there are some tricks, but even if you managed to set the breakpoint correctly there's still reakage in e.g. "until".) So basically what had to be done is: If you make the lookup between line in source code and offset in object code, look if you are in a templated function, if yes search for all matching offsets in object code instead of only the first one. I looked at the code and while I wasn't able to do the fix myself, I think for someone who knows gdb's internal, the fix wouldn't be much work. If gdb had a leader who said "we don't ship broken code", gdb developers would be at annoyed because their favorite new feature of which they are proud and fond isn't released to the public and would eventually sit down and fix it, just as it happens in Emacs. -- Did you ever realize how much text fits in eighty columns? If you now consider that a signature usually consists of up to four lines, this gives you enough space to spread a tremendous amount of information with your messages. So seize this opportunity and don't waste your signature with bullshit nobody will read. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-19 11:46 ` Frank Schmitt @ 2006-10-19 12:55 ` Juanma Barranquero 2006-10-19 19:55 ` Nick Roberts 2006-10-20 6:16 ` Eli Zaretskii 2 siblings, 0 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2006-10-19 12:55 UTC (permalink / raw) On 10/19/06, Frank Schmitt <ich@frank-schmitt.net> wrote: > If gdb had a leader who said "we don't ship broken code", gdb developers > would be at annoyed because their favorite new feature of which they are > proud and fond isn't released to the public and would eventually sit > down and fix it Or leave GDB and look for another project more to their tastes. Or fork the project. Or overthrow the leader :) > just as it happens in Emacs. <cough> <cough> -- /L/e/k/t/u ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-19 11:46 ` Frank Schmitt 2006-10-19 12:55 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2006-10-19 19:55 ` Nick Roberts 2006-10-20 8:20 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-20 6:16 ` Eli Zaretskii 2 siblings, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Nick Roberts @ 2006-10-19 19:55 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel > So basically what had to be done is: If you make the lookup between line > in source code and offset in object code, look if you are in a templated > function, if yes search for all matching offsets in object code instead > of only the first one. I looked at the code and while I wasn't able to > do the fix myself, I think for someone who knows gdb's internal, the fix > wouldn't be much work. > > If gdb had a leader who said "we don't ship broken code", gdb developers > would be at annoyed because their favorite new feature of which they are > proud and fond isn't released to the public and would eventually sit > down and fix it, just as it happens in Emacs. This is armchair advocacy. I suspect that the fix isn't as easy as you suggest, but if you feel that strongly about it, you could work on a fix. -- Nick http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-19 19:55 ` Nick Roberts @ 2006-10-20 8:20 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-20 9:00 ` Nick Roberts 0 siblings, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-20 8:20 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ich, emacs-devel > If gdb had a leader who said "we don't ship broken code", gdb developers > would be at annoyed because their favorite new feature of which they are > proud and fond isn't released to the public and would eventually sit > down and fix it, just as it happens in Emacs. This is armchair advocacy. I suspect that the fix isn't as easy as you suggest, but if you feel that strongly about it, you could work on a fix. He did not say anything about the amount of work required. Whether it is easy or hard affects what the project leaders need to do, but either way they should exercise leadership to get it fixed. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-20 8:20 ` Richard Stallman @ 2006-10-20 9:00 ` Nick Roberts 2006-10-20 12:01 ` Frank Schmitt 0 siblings, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Nick Roberts @ 2006-10-20 9:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ich, emacs-devel > > If gdb had a leader who said "we don't ship broken code", gdb > > developers would be at annoyed because their favorite new feature of > > which they are proud and fond isn't released to the public and would > > eventually sit down and fix it, just as it happens in Emacs. > > This is armchair advocacy. I suspect that the fix isn't as easy as you > suggest, but if you feel that strongly about it, you could work on a fix. > > He did not say anything about the amount of work required. In the sentence before your quote he said: Frank> I looked at the code and while I wasn't able to do the fix myself, I Frank> think for someone who knows gdb's internal, the fix wouldn't be much Frank> work > Whether it > is easy or hard affects what the project leaders need to do, but > either way they should exercise leadership to get it fixed. Templates aren't GDB's only shortcoming. I could say GDB/MI is broken. Others would say it's weak at debugging multi-threaded programs. Frank appears to be saying "I want GDB to work well with C++ templates but I don't want to work on it, so somebody else should or we should make life unpleasant for them.". Maybe annoying the people who do contibute to free software is exercising leadership, I wouldn't know. -- Nick http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-20 9:00 ` Nick Roberts @ 2006-10-20 12:01 ` Frank Schmitt 2006-10-20 20:33 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-10-21 1:08 ` Miles Bader 0 siblings, 2 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Frank Schmitt @ 2006-10-20 12:01 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: rms, emacs-devel Nick Roberts <nickrob@snap.net.nz> writes: > > He did not say anything about the amount of work required. > > In the sentence before your quote he said: > > Frank> I looked at the code and while I wasn't able to do the fix myself, I > Frank> think for someone who knows gdb's internal, the fix wouldn't be much > Frank> work > > > Whether it > > is easy or hard affects what the project leaders need to do, but > > either way they should exercise leadership to get it fixed. > > Templates aren't GDB's only shortcoming. I could say GDB/MI is broken. Others > would say it's weak at debugging multi-threaded programs. Frank appears to be > saying "I want GDB to work well with C++ templates but I don't want to work on > it, so somebody else should or we should make life unpleasant for them.". > Maybe annoying the people who do contibute to free software is exercising > leadership, I wouldn't know. What I wanted to state is: A free project (especially if it doesn't have any capable free competitors (like gcc, gdb, the Linux kernel, to a lesser degree Mozilla)) has a responsibility to deliver code which fulfills the promises regarding functionality the project makes. Gdb states that it "allows you to see what is going on `inside' another program while it executes" and that "The program being debugged can be written in C, C++, Pascal, Objective-C (and many other languages)". Telling the user base "If you want the software to behave as advertised, fix it" is both common in free software and bad style as most users just can't do this. -- Did you ever realize how much text fits in eighty columns? If you now consider that a signature usually consists of up to four lines, this gives you enough space to spread a tremendous amount of information with your messages. So seize this opportunity and don't waste your signature with bullshit nobody will read. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-20 12:01 ` Frank Schmitt @ 2006-10-20 20:33 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-10-21 1:08 ` Miles Bader 1 sibling, 0 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-10-20 20:33 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: nickrob, rms, emacs-devel > From: Frank Schmitt <ich@frank-schmitt.net> > Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 14:01:31 +0200 > Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > What I wanted to state is: A free project (especially if it doesn't have > any capable free competitors (like gcc, gdb, the Linux kernel, to a > lesser degree Mozilla)) has a responsibility to deliver code which > fulfills the promises regarding functionality the project makes. Gdb > states that it "allows you to see what is going on `inside' another > program while it executes" and that "The program being debugged can be > written in C, C++, Pascal, Objective-C (and many other languages)". And it fulfills that promise. But what on Earth does all this have to do with an Emacs bug database issue??? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-20 12:01 ` Frank Schmitt 2006-10-20 20:33 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-10-21 1:08 ` Miles Bader 1 sibling, 0 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Miles Bader @ 2006-10-21 1:08 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Nick Roberts, rms, emacs-devel Frank Schmitt <ich@frank-schmitt.net> writes: > Telling the user base "If you want the software to behave as advertised, > fix it" is both common in free software and bad style as most users just > can't do this. Most free software authors are completely honest about what's going on: They try their best given a limited amount of manpower, and inevitably cannot do everything (it's far easier to think up cool features than implement them). However, because it's free software, users _have the ability_ to help the process along. While not all users have the resources to do so (and it doesn't need to be programming expertise -- e.g. money to hire a programmer will do just as well), this is absolutely liberating as a user. Being honest about the realities of software development is not "bad style." [and they are indeed realities -- the vast majority of commercial software is horribly buggy, but they try their best to hide that fact under layers of glitz and marketing; of course when the software is proprietary, the user has few options.] There is nothing more frustrating for a programmer than using software with an obvious and simple-to-fix problem, but being helpless to actually try and do that fix yourself. Of course things are ten times more frustrating when the company declares that product dead, and ceases all future development! [and these are things that happen _every day_ with commercial software] It's unfortunate that current cultural trends among computer users has emphasized the "use and drool, it's all too complicated for me" attitude among users (because I think the barriers to involvement are mostly cultural). Hopefully free software can help reverse this attitude, even if such change comes slowly. -Miles -- "I distrust a research person who is always obviously busy on a task." --Robert Frosch, VP, GM Research ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-19 11:46 ` Frank Schmitt 2006-10-19 12:55 ` Juanma Barranquero 2006-10-19 19:55 ` Nick Roberts @ 2006-10-20 6:16 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-10-20 21:00 ` David Kastrup 2 siblings, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-10-20 6:16 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel > From: Frank Schmitt <ich@frank-schmitt.net> > Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 13:46:35 +0200 > > If gdb had a leader who said "we don't ship broken code", gdb developers > would be at annoyed because their favorite new feature of which they are > proud and fond isn't released to the public You are forgetting that GDB is used not only to debug C++ programs. I'm not sure delaying GDB releases until C++ support is completely fixed is not too harsh towards C developers, say, especially since no one has a clear vision of how this C++ monstrocity can be fixed in some reasonable way (witness the related discussions on the GDB lists). Of course, if you know how to do that, I'm sure patches will be welcome. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-20 6:16 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-10-20 21:00 ` David Kastrup 2006-10-21 1:21 ` Miles Bader 0 siblings, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2006-10-20 21:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Frank Schmitt, emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: >> From: Frank Schmitt <ich@frank-schmitt.net> >> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 13:46:35 +0200 >> >> If gdb had a leader who said "we don't ship broken code", gdb developers >> would be at annoyed because their favorite new feature of which they are >> proud and fond isn't released to the public > > You are forgetting that GDB is used not only to debug C++ programs. > I'm not sure delaying GDB releases until C++ support is completely > fixed is not too harsh towards C developers, Which is basically what lead to the egcs fork at one time. C++ is really a handicap. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-20 21:00 ` David Kastrup @ 2006-10-21 1:21 ` Miles Bader 0 siblings, 0 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Miles Bader @ 2006-10-21 1:21 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Eli Zaretskii, Frank Schmitt, emacs-devel David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes: > C++ is really a handicap. C++ (with templates) clearly could have been better in many ways, but even with all its flaws, is a very nice language for some types of programming. [i.e., while I can imagine a more elegant language offering the same advantages, I don't know of any that are widely available. Availability is important too! :-] Templates+inlining do indeed make things interesting for debuggers, but as a programmer, I'll put up with some debugging pain if my program source can be made much more clear as a result. -Miles -- "Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it." Mahatma Ghandi ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-19 7:04 ` Frank Schmitt 2006-10-19 9:26 ` David Kastrup 2006-10-19 10:07 ` Nick Roberts @ 2006-10-20 2:19 ` Miles Bader 2006-10-21 0:31 ` Giorgos Keramidas 2006-10-20 6:01 ` Eli Zaretskii 3 siblings, 1 reply; 65+ messages in thread From: Miles Bader @ 2006-10-20 2:19 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Frank Schmitt <ich@frank-schmitt.net> writes: > Which results in the fact that gdb is since years completely unusable > for C++ programs relying on templated functions. Well, while I'll admit that the last I looked[*] the gdb internals were awful, unreadable, and barely maintainable code, this statement simply isn't true. [*] Many years ago, so take this with a grain of salt. I spend lots of time debugging heavily templated C++ code in gdb, and basically there are few problems (other than the canonical "optimized code can be confusing in the debugger" issues). While debugging around templates requires a bit of knowledge about what's actually going on, it's no different than many other general debugging problems; you run into minor annoyances, and you quickly find ways around them. > So most C++ developers I know have switched to the "free as in free > beer but not free as in free software" debugger from Sun Studio which > in contrast to gdb works really well. I suspect this has more to do with the sort of developers you know than with gdb. -Miles -- (\(\ (^.^) (")") *This is the cute bunny virus, please copy this into your sig so it can spread. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-20 2:19 ` Miles Bader @ 2006-10-21 0:31 ` Giorgos Keramidas 0 siblings, 0 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Giorgos Keramidas @ 2006-10-21 0:31 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Frank Schmitt, emacs-devel On 2006-10-20 11:19, Miles Bader <miles.bader@necel.com> wrote: > Frank Schmitt <ich@frank-schmitt.net> writes: > > Which results in the fact that gdb is since years completely unusable > > for C++ programs relying on templated functions. > > Well, while I'll admit that the last I looked[*] the gdb internals were > awful, unreadable, and barely maintainable code, this statement simply > isn't true. > > [*] Many years ago, so take this with a grain of salt. > > I spend lots of time debugging heavily templated C++ code in gdb, and > basically there are few problems (other than the canonical "optimized > code can be confusing in the debugger" issues). While debugging around > templates requires a bit of knowledge about what's actually going on, > it's no different than many other general debugging problems; you run > into minor annoyances, and you quickly find ways around them. > > > So most C++ developers I know have switched to the "free as in free > > beer but not free as in free software" debugger from Sun Studio which > > in contrast to gdb works really well. > > I suspect this has more to do with the sort of developers you know than > with gdb. I am inclined to fully agree with this last statement. I have had requests (and prepared a patch for the build process/system) from colleagues in a couple of places (both my current work and earlier ones), to build programs with the -xs flag of Sun Studio, so that they can use gdb(1) instead of dbx(1). What people prefer is, after all, uhm, a `preference' only :) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
* Re: Bug Database? 2006-10-19 7:04 ` Frank Schmitt ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2006-10-20 2:19 ` Miles Bader @ 2006-10-20 6:01 ` Eli Zaretskii 3 siblings, 0 replies; 65+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-10-20 6:01 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel > From: Frank Schmitt <ich@frank-schmitt.net> > Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 09:04:55 +0200 > > Which results in the fact that gdb is since years completely unusable > for C++ programs relying on templated functions (so basically all C++ > programs which aren't just pimped C). That's because the GCC developers don't care a bit about having their newest and hottest features being debuggable with GDB. GCC leaves an abysmally inadequate record of its program transformations in the debug info, which GDB then needs to unlock somehow. In some situations this is very hard, in others it's plain impossible. But I fail to see how all this digression is relevant to Emacs and its bug tracker. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 65+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2006-10-24 17:41 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 65+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2006-10-17 21:49 Bug Database? Nick Roberts 2006-10-17 23:17 ` David Reitter 2006-10-18 4:24 ` Chong Yidong 2006-10-18 4:39 ` Nick Roberts 2006-10-18 6:22 ` Jan Djärv 2006-10-18 17:54 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-18 10:41 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-18 13:35 ` Juanma Barranquero 2006-10-19 6:41 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-19 7:17 ` Juanma Barranquero 2006-10-19 8:50 ` Jason Rumney 2006-10-20 6:06 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-20 10:06 ` Jason Rumney 2006-10-21 2:02 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-20 5:55 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-10-20 10:26 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-20 17:35 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-10-21 12:04 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-21 1:31 ` Miles Bader 2006-10-21 9:40 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-10-21 12:48 ` Miles Bader 2006-10-22 16:36 ` David Kastrup 2006-10-21 9:42 ` Andreas Schwab 2006-10-21 12:50 ` Miles Bader 2006-10-21 17:37 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-21 18:07 ` Andreas Schwab 2006-10-23 5:11 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-23 8:52 ` Andreas Schwab 2006-10-23 18:38 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-23 12:02 ` Alfred M. Szmidt 2006-10-24 17:41 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-21 12:05 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-18 14:37 ` Nick Roberts 2006-10-18 15:20 ` joakim 2006-10-18 16:41 ` Emacs-based web browser (was Re: Bug Database?) Magnus Henoch 2006-10-18 17:26 ` Emacs-based web browser Stefan Monnier 2006-10-18 17:36 ` Lennart Borgman 2006-10-18 18:02 ` Magnus Henoch 2006-10-19 6:41 ` Bug Database? Richard Stallman 2006-10-19 8:30 ` Nick Roberts 2006-10-20 6:06 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-20 7:53 ` Nick Roberts 2006-10-20 7:45 ` Yavor Doganov 2006-10-23 10:45 ` Sascha Wilde 2006-10-20 22:10 ` Michael Olson 2006-10-18 10:42 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-18 14:47 ` Nick Roberts 2006-10-19 6:41 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-19 7:04 ` Frank Schmitt 2006-10-19 9:26 ` David Kastrup 2006-10-19 10:07 ` Nick Roberts 2006-10-19 11:46 ` Frank Schmitt 2006-10-19 12:55 ` Juanma Barranquero 2006-10-19 19:55 ` Nick Roberts 2006-10-20 8:20 ` Richard Stallman 2006-10-20 9:00 ` Nick Roberts 2006-10-20 12:01 ` Frank Schmitt 2006-10-20 20:33 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-10-21 1:08 ` Miles Bader 2006-10-20 6:16 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-10-20 21:00 ` David Kastrup 2006-10-21 1:21 ` Miles Bader 2006-10-20 2:19 ` Miles Bader 2006-10-21 0:31 ` Giorgos Keramidas 2006-10-20 6:01 ` Eli Zaretskii
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