From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: no-spam@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Default Emacs keybindings Date: 03 May 2004 09:32:47 +0200 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: References: <20040502211541.GA26227@fencepost> <85y8oa6nwi.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <20040503083427.GA6360@fencepost> NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1083576951 11552 80.91.224.253 (3 May 2004 09:35:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 09:35:51 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Lars Brinkhoff , emacs-devel@gnu.org, "Kim F. Storm" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Mon May 03 11:35:45 2004 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BKZrV-0006DI-00 for ; Mon, 03 May 2004 11:35:45 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BKZrV-0004Hy-00 for ; Mon, 03 May 2004 11:35:45 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BKZqR-0006Dy-If for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Mon, 03 May 2004 05:34:39 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BKZps-00068s-G7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 03 May 2004 05:34:04 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BKZpM-0005Fg-1M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 03 May 2004 05:34:03 -0400 Original-Received: from [212.88.64.25] (helo=mail-relay.sonofon.dk) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BKZpL-0005D2-EW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 03 May 2004 05:33:31 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 90387 invoked from network); 3 May 2004 09:33:30 -0000 Original-Received: from unknown (HELO kfs-l.imdomain.dk.cua.dk) (213.83.150.2) by 0 with SMTP; 3 May 2004 09:33:30 -0000 Original-To: Miles Bader In-Reply-To: <20040503083427.GA6360@fencepost> Original-Lines: 50 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:22595 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:22595 Miles Bader writes: > On Mon, May 03, 2004 at 07:53:40AM +0200, Kim F. Storm wrote: > > Now I understand -- to use the emacs bindings you have to buy a > > special keyboard. How convenient :-| > > Geez, Kim, it's just a very nice keyboard. I don't doubt that. > > To be honest, a standard keyboard isn't really much good for typing commands > at all -- on a standard keyboard _none_ of the non-shift modifier keys is in > a convenient position for the most efficient use of `modeless' editor like > emacs. > > None. Well, I get by quite alright. But they are not in an ideal position. But reality is that the keys are where they are... You and I may know how to make emacs (and other apps) use a better keyboard layout (or may buy another keyboard), but most users don't have that option (or don't know that they should even consider this). They just think that emacs' default bindings are awkward... > > So you really can't blame the emacs command set -- it's simply not possible > to do much better without either remapping something, or buying a better > keyboard. I understand what you are saying, but I also think you contradict yourself. Why insist on teaching (in the tutorial) new emacs users (which I bet don't have a HH keyboard) to use bindings which you just admitted are NOT convenient to use with today's standard keyboard layout. If those bindings are only superior in a special setup, why waste time teaching/learning them? That time would be better spent on teaching some of the _useful_ features of emacs. > > > Are you serious ? > > What about you? I am very serious! -- Kim F. Storm http://www.cua.dk