From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Thomas Fitzsimmons Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: RFC: Adding BBDB to Emacs core Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 10:53:19 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87lgdpphmm.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1523890294 17594 195.159.176.226 (16 Apr 2018 14:51:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 14:51:34 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) To: emacs-devel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Apr 16 16:51:30 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1f85Ta-0004SO-NY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 16:51:26 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51202 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1f85Vh-0002kB-5t for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 10:53:37 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:42669) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1f85VW-0002hq-Ar for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 10:53:27 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1f85VT-00055z-6w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 10:53:26 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-io0-x229.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4001:c06::229]:34842) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1f85VS-00055U-UC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 10:53:23 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-io0-x229.google.com with SMTP id k8so7583369ioc.2 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 07:53:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fitzsim-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent :mime-version; bh=ZhQeTZgxrDeffCXhNdXl3vHqutYjhpL4CaP6MuPfENs=; b=w02oRmT9rvuscAEoQn3cjhMZQ5WGPlETOjpnS9jPP3iKFMg9JVCnvDSVHxKtpb56Qj ev/W/0LquY8Zx9dDW2e11tBjUOhA1ByWhIvXvlrGZKyCriNGBuZZdfYG5nHtB902IjcQ rEty9yDgfnkkLNhHeTMTbraRGSI7tmVN4n7CMA/dGd8ScL+JuHFGfZWRm64AAgkCl8l6 wGwPNLrrpKv6vL5A8cXojZ2ntEnqypHKMJBhYx40523NTOZyXho2oZTKukBdw1HTZ+WT /cjsGgLdSmJy0zFjw7+PxDUD0eET0iE/+3zBDnYvQNVobKoDuwSHKLT1+xIZg4wzPm1q rRjA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=ZhQeTZgxrDeffCXhNdXl3vHqutYjhpL4CaP6MuPfENs=; b=OX52bZAnkZLY5JF1V9MMDwkPVtPzRHBGrJ5b/lLvMvj+nMaztpW2xJmKKNyB2he9C2 R6vSIPGWchXeL425nKEiCkkFk05H+tADFMW/fzqVW4Rvn6fL5WF4rlsO35jHD20NKXTe n5iY6kPXmY1OwmdYaq+DyqimK9pE7a1DVqpODfBdFdwMbxIclpWIxI7wg2T0e6wxfvcG mn7sjJmeK3o3BRiGfrj/BrE5WNkvRegU7HJ7KhQy/12yyImLET1SYC7M4k4tqNIEOs9t OUdm1erDBkLfHgAYsrc276+ql6v9xUwJ5NdgB2IYm713fKUElWNKQv4R0Btaq+BiYtHG oApQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tCPXzsyaF13wuTRBrfN+CIGX0jKzqhm5pwr4zcsgAaFHZr8WoEG 4ksm0/GfLvklQ0RhyfB3SRww3z7U X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4/3+tS//z5N704rL75FbLngllh/GxbIXITxlN0oJ98NRMKKnCMJwUXMGcJrm662CJleOFkiCg== X-Received: by 10.107.145.7 with SMTP id t7mr22632868iod.273.1523890401780; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 07:53:21 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from hp-dv5t (69-165-165-189.dsl.teksavvy.com. [69.165.165.189]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f11-v6sm4607124itf.42.2018.04.16.07.53.20 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Mon, 16 Apr 2018 07:53:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (John Wiegley's message of "Sun, 15 Apr 2018 22:21:58 -0700") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4001:c06::229 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:224644 Archived-At: "John Wiegley" writes: >>>>>> "BB" == Bozhidar Batsov writes: > > BB> You can add my voice to "I'd rather just have in ELPA (and we should be > BB> moving more and more packages there). > > Same here. I really don't want to see BBDB moved into core. I do want ELPA > packages to become more "first class" than they are now, so that the desire to > add such packages to core would no longer have the same appeal. I think the end result from the perspective of core Emacs maintainers' maintenance burden would not be different in beneficial ways than BBDB just being in core. Quoting Stefan later in the thread, the (1) "fetch some packages from elpa.git while building the Emacs tarball" method may allow for nice out-of-the-box BBDB integration for an Emacs release, and solve the problems I'm trying to solve for users of Emacs major release tarballs (but not users/developers who build the Emacs they use out of git, and I'd worry about last-minute integration of all this stuff -- who makes sure it all works together, at what point before release?). But method (1) wouldn't solve the EUDC package maintenance aspects for me (EUDC requiring something not in the tree). For that, we'd need Stefan's solution (2) "also clone elpa.git when you clone emacs.git" solution. That may solve both cases if it's done completely, see below. To get the same benefits for BBDB as it being in core, I'd want solution (2) to ensure that core maintainers always clone BBDB into their tree, so that they always build it. Then they can check for compile errors, and usage of new features, as they change the core parts of Emacs around BBDB. I get very useful patches to EUDC from the core maintainers from time to time even though they don't know EUDC functionality or internals; I would hope that with solution (2) I'd still get those types of patches. Assuming (2) achieves all that, from the core maintainer's perspective, what's the difference? The downside is they have two repos to deal with, and the interactions between the two to always consider (e.g., do we branch all of ELPA to match Emacs branches (probably not), or write all ELPA packages to work on any Emacs branch (probably), etc.). Or is there some other way of bumping ELPA packages up to first class status that you're envisioning? I'm willing to help experiment with different approaches to solve EUDC/BBDB issues, FWIW, but as yet I can't envision the end result. (Philosophical aside: I really don't want to see Emacs major releases become just an Elisp language runtime, class libraries and package management. That would be sad. Emacs is special, not just another language environment. Package discovery via GNU ELPA (over the network) just isn't the same as feature discovery within the running Emacs instance -- there's always an extra level of annoyance, network access and configuration associated with external packages. I'm hoping that by Emacs 27.1 I'll have a window manager in my text editor. Maybe Emacs could do like GNU/Linux distributions and publish e.g., emacs-minimal-27.1.tar.gz alongside emacs-27.1.tar.gz though.) Thomas