Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"

Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"

[Glenn Morris]

A critical question. What is the standard form in GNU manuals for using
the possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"?

  This is one of Emacs's most important features.

or

  This is one of Emacs' most important features.

Currently there are ~ 46 instances of the former in the manuals, and 63 of
the latter. I favour the former.

Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"

[Deniz Dogan]

On 2012-02-23 18:48, Glenn Morris wrote:
>
> A critical question. What is the standard form in GNU manuals for using
> the possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"?
>
>    This is one of Emacs's most important features.
>
> or
>
>    This is one of Emacs' most important features.
>
> Currently there are ~ 46 instances of the former in the manuals, and 63 of
> the latter. I favour the former.
>

What does grammar say?  Is it a corner-case?  Does it differ depending 
on locale?

Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"

[James Cloos]

>>>>> "DD" == Deniz Dogan <deniz@dogan.se> writes:

>> This is one of Emacs's most important features.
>> 
>> or
>> 
>> This is one of Emacs' most important features.

DD> What does grammar say?  Is it a corner-case?  Does it differ
DD> depending on locale?

In en_US Standard Written English the latter is preferred.

I've heard tell that en_UK disagrees, but that is only hearsay.

-JimC
-- 
James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com>         OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6

Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Deniz Dogan writes:

 > What does grammar say?  Is it a corner-case?  Does it differ depending 
 > on locale?

Early-to-mid 1900s grammar says without any self-critical doubt
whatsoever that for a singular noun ending in "s" the possessive is
formed by adding "'s".

Before and after grammar says either is OK, with after grammar having
a footnote saying that early-to-mid-1900s grammarians were fascist
usurpers of the people's right to determine their own language, as
evidenced by the usage of before grammar.  Before grammar has no
footnotes referring to after grammar, though.

With-tongue-firmly-in-cheeks's-ly y'rs,

P.S. Personally I favor "Emacs's".

Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"

[Eli Zaretskii]

>   This is one of Emacs's most important features.
> 
> or
> 
>   This is one of Emacs' most important features.
> 
> Currently there are ~ 46 instances of the former in the manuals, and 63 of
> the latter. I favour the former.

Me too.

RE: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"

[Drew Adams]

> A critical question. What is the standard form in GNU manuals 
> for using the possessive apostrophe with singular nouns
> ending in "s"?
> 
>   This is one of Emacs's most important features.
> or
>   This is one of Emacs' most important features.
> 
> Currently there are ~ 46 instances of the former in the 
> manuals, and 63 of the latter. I favour the former.

+1 for the former case (.+s's is my preference also).

(Dunno what the GNU standard is for this.)

As for guidance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#Singular_nouns_ending_with_an_.22s.22_or
_.22z.22_sound

http://www.grammarmudge.cityslide.com/articles/article/426348/4944.htm

http://www.englishclub.com/esl-articles/possessive-apostrophe.htm

Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"

[Jambunathan K]

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> +1 for the former case (.+s's is my preference also).
>
> (Dunno what the GNU standard is for this.)
>
> As for guidance:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#Singular_nouns_ending_with_an_.22s.22_or
> _.22z.22_sound

It seems the opinion is divided. If I read between the words there, the
editors seem to think that the "Chicago Manual Of Style" is not one
among the respected authorities.

I would rather not be found hissing.
-- 

Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> It seems the opinion is divided. If I read between the words there, the
> editors seem to think that the "Chicago Manual Of Style" is not one
> among the respected authorities.

I think the reflexive impulse most educated people have these days is
"whatever you do, don't do what's in Chicago".  Unless Chicago happens
to have it right by coincidence.  Even a stopped clock.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/

Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"

[chad]

On Feb 23, 2012, at 12:51 PM, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote:

> Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> It seems the opinion is divided. If I read between the words there, the
>> editors seem to think that the "Chicago Manual Of Style" is not one
>> among the respected authorities.
> 
> I think the reflexive impulse most educated people have these days is
> "whatever you do, don't do what's in Chicago".  Unless Chicago happens
> to have it right by coincidence.  Even a stopped clock.

That's funny, because my wife is a professional editor, taking an editing class for a brush-up/certificate, and the class teaches them to use CMS by default.  This class includes working professional editors of various types in newspapers, technical, fiction, and corporate fields, primarily in the US. Maybe the divide is NA/Europen?

I gather that a lot of the "don't use CMS" feedback stems from CMS 12, while version 16 came out last year. 

I believe that Emacs's is the recommended formatting, but the recommended style is to avoid that construction most of the time regardless.

Hope that helps,
*Chad

Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen writes:

 > I think the reflexive impulse most educated people have these days is
 > "whatever you do, don't do what's in Chicago".

"Reflexive impulse in an educated person" is an oxymoron.

Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

() "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org>
() Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:15:44 +0900

   "Reflexive impulse in an educated person" is an oxymoron.

Perhaps not if you consider (un-)*education with an even number of ‘un-’,
or the properly odd number of ‘re-’ in their stead.  :-/

Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"

[Jambunathan K]

>   This is one of Emacs' most important features.

IIRC, this is what high school grammar books recommend. Don't ask me for
citation.
-- 

Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"

[Jambunathan K]

Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:

> A critical question. What is the standard form in GNU manuals for using
> the possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"?
>
>   This is one of Emacs's most important features.
>
> or
>
>   This is one of Emacs' most important features.
>
> Currently there are ~ 46 instances of the former in the manuals, and 63 of
> the latter. I favour the former.

If the "subject" is Emacs - It is Emacs'(s) manual right? - then the
above controversy can altogether be avoided by dropping self-references
altogether. Even if there is a need, one can use runtime etc. and still
make herself understood by the reader.
-- 

RE: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"

[Drew Adams]

> If the "subject" is Emacs - It is Emacs'(s) manual right? - then the
> above controversy can altogether be avoided by dropping 
> self-references altogether. Even if there is a need, one can use
> runtime etc. and still make herself understood by the reader.

Good point.

In fact, many (most?) technical writing style guidelines call for avoiding such
possessives.  It is, I think, increasingly common to see, e.g., "the object
name" instead of "the object's name".  (I have no possessive apostrophes in the
doc I write, for instance.)

Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"

[Paul Eggert]

On 02/23/2012 09:48 AM, Glenn Morris wrote:
> Currently there are ~ 46 instances of the former in the manuals, and 63 of
> the latter. I favour the former.

These days "Emacs's" is preferred by more stylebooks (OUP, MLA, BBC, Economist)
than "Emacs'" (AP, Chicago).  The shorter form is still more common for classical
and biblical names ("Socrates'", "Jesus'"), but I don't think anybody would
claim that "Emacs" has been around *that* long.  So let's use "Emacs's".

For more, please see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#Singular_nouns_ending_with_an_.22s.22_or_.22z.22_sound

Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"

[Jay Belanger]

Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> writes:

> On 02/23/2012 09:48 AM, Glenn Morris wrote:
>> Currently there are ~ 46 instances of the former in the manuals, and 63 of
>> the latter. I favour the former.
>
> These days "Emacs's" is preferred by more stylebooks (OUP, MLA, BBC, Economist)
> than "Emacs'" (AP, Chicago).

According to the wikipedia article, the 16th Edition of Chicago now
recommends "Emacs's" (or rather, no longer recommends "Emacs'").

Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hi, Glenn.

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 12:48:17PM -0500, Glenn Morris wrote:

> A critical question. What is the standard form in GNU manuals for using
> the possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"?

>   This is one of Emacs's most important features.

> or

>   This is one of Emacs' most important features.

> Currently there are ~ 46 instances of the former in the manuals, and 63 of
> the latter. I favour the former.

Me too.  Presumably you use "Morris's" too, when you get to be
possessive.

A good ground for this choice is consistency and logic - if adding "'s"
is the normal method of possessivisation, why depart from it
unnecessarily?

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"

[Stefan Monnier]

> A critical question.

Indeed.  Down with inconsistency!

> I favour the former.

I don't favour anything myself, but I do favor Freedom.  Let each author
write it the way they like it.  Same as with British/American English.


        Stefan

Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"

[Wolfgang Jenkner]

On Thu, Feb 23 2012, Glenn Morris wrote:

> A critical question. What is the standard form in GNU manuals for using
> the possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"?
>
>   This is one of Emacs's most important features.
>
> or
>
>   This is one of Emacs' most important features.

Actually, [1] states that the latter form can be used only with
/regular/ nouns ending in "s", but many people use the plural form
"Emacsen", so, in current usage, "Emacs" is not a regular noun.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxon_genitive

Wolfgang

Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"

[Richard Stallman]

    Actually, [1] states that the latter form can be used only with
    /regular/ nouns ending in "s", but many people use the plural form
    "Emacsen", so, in current usage, "Emacs" is not a regular noun.

It's worse than that: "Emacs" is a plural form used as singular.
"Emacs" originally stood for "Editing macros".

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/

Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"

[Miles Bader]

Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:
> A critical question. What is the standard form in GNU manuals for using
> the possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"?
>   This is one of Emacs's most important features.
>   This is one of Emacs' most important features.

What I've always heard (and which seems eminently practical) is that
one should just follow the actual pronunciation, which is pretty easy
for a native-speaker to check.  Most things get an explicit "'s" (so
it makes sense for that to be the default if it's unclear), but some
words just sound downright weird that way, so it should be omitted for
them.

[Emacs sounds OK either way to me, but I'd say "Emacs's" should get
the nod...]

-miles

-- 
"I distrust a research person who is always obviously busy on a task."
   --Robert Frosch, VP, GM Research