From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: call for more ert tests Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 22:44:48 +0200 Message-ID: References: <838v1zjrnl.fsf@gnu.org> <8361x3jqsy.fsf@gnu.org> <8338s7jp53.fsf@gnu.org> <87bo6vb8uo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83ehbqi5lj.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1372193119 5013 80.91.229.3 (25 Jun 2013 20:45:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 20:45:19 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Sebastian Wiesner Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jun 25 22:45:20 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ura70-00020l-Jl for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 25 Jun 2013 22:45:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38874 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ura70-0003Xc-4D for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 25 Jun 2013 16:45:14 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48248) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ura6u-0003TY-2h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 25 Jun 2013 16:45:11 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ura6n-0006d3-R7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 25 Jun 2013 16:45:08 -0400 Original-Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:56397) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ura6n-0006Y5-Io; Tue, 25 Jun 2013 16:45:01 -0400 Original-Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=stories.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ura6a-0002LB-S0; Tue, 25 Jun 2013 22:44:48 +0200 Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAgMAAAAqbBEUAAAADFBMVEUGBgkeHiJaWV68vMA3 8Tt6AAACRElEQVQokR3OsUsbYRgG8OeCX6QJqC2eYoRIoS2Npbm5k1+KxoJLhJzFBBSK2l5Cc6vJ YK9FOnS6QFNaXRSMGEVvsRAt5vwTIpglDo1gShOhcTDlPJL7enZ4Hvi9vMMDRoXdQeJdz+Q7b8BG Rww3HaosGJwBJsrnbnRXBo+JAUsaUaK0+8p9HLLQjL0rxmnXhaMaukRTK5ysouuCa2ct0Mg5QAA8 ph24268A3XZc9qHXb5dQARxKGNm8M00Hiz0EVR+SV3xGiZ8+IFhM4ofq/KWwlngHkRz8PWSmR2/d U/CyBKmXk1DIQwVfQ2UssB4+3AAPMQlluP84n1ibc03O74EuyJm8p7TV+WU7DiTe4IjMH5HNTARk 7JrMIJYILIoi+L6iZ3XOlK8H0hLCQ6OxzYalt4NqDvv+8fqmbulWsJJCPhmtMxuMHhTw6qu7wew3 C7EcJl64z27RRrSEp6Pust7I6rvcVBX70xOfNDOj7ZKNA9RSclD7u9MwX2dnoKRc3M6Nrpkfq1Eo YsxG/GdNHOORFk0at6JnNZ+97XPfCo1ajfI316QIw+uiEUsuRxyqhMNChHqYXvYEm0u48HvpMGMr HkcxhdO+hGIjM+0MiVA7dPrEhuQL8FDo0i2Wp+c6eNCBkROBMbr9Id2P3wvyucz+qNvPxT00Hw6Z GjPTOUxKeEuF+ux/kDXMQjDHGXu/hc4SppaFelG3Anl4RKxtCOyahMkNfBLuJ2cvW8CjNvd9HiGv cGkBzwxOFQGn1mBAwbC3/QNh4g23zxT3uQAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Prince's _Dirty Mind_: "Head" X-Hashcash: 1:23:130625:eliz@gnu.org::Nq8u3Ie+h9XOG/0Z:00000b0kN X-Hashcash: 1:23:130625:lunaryorn@gmail.com::JUPctRi4fhkVQI8t:000000000000000000000000000000000000000000LydT X-Hashcash: 1:23:130625:emacs-devel@gnu.org::95DOkspigVvcq+TV:000000000000000000000000000000000000000000fOSZ In-Reply-To: (Sebastian Wiesner's message of "Tue, 25 Jun 2013 22:36:29 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.130008 (Ma Gnus v0.8) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) X-MailScanner-ID: 1Ura6a-0002LB-S0 MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1372797890.14274@UUZwhswJVPN89ibiIS5O5A X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.224.195 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:161056 Archived-At: Sebastian Wiesner writes: > Actually, you aren't done=85 you are just out-sourcing your work, i.e. > regression testing, to your users. In the absence of tests, you will > never realize that your quick change of "li" rendering accidentally > broke "a" rendering until the first user complains and sends you back > to the keyboard in order to debug the bug which you introduced. Sounds unlikely. When I fix a the rendering, the page is there right in the buffer as I'm coding, and mess-ups would be pretty immediately obvious. And if I miss it, somebody will tell me, as you say. So in this scenario, having to fiddle with the test cases to make the change "pass" means more work for me, for a very unlikely gain, which (in the unlikely case of me making an error!!!) would be discovered by somebody else. So there's nothing to gain here for the Emacs developers. And I think that people writing other highly interactive and non-vital stuff has started to find this out in general the last few years. On Hacker News there's constantly people popping up who've seen the light -- having too many automatic tests means ossifying the software. The TDD nightmare is almost over now, and Emacs survived without gaining too many useless automatic tests while the fad lasted. --=20 (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/