From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: joakim@verona.se Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:45:38 +0200 Message-ID: References: <10954D02-E217-49F3-8824-757DA34074AB@gmail.com> <83zkxzakr0.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqyva8ms.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1278956762 28094 80.91.229.12 (12 Jul 2010 17:46:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 17:46:02 +0000 (UTC) Cc: ams@gnu.org, levelhalom@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Lennart Borgman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 12 19:45:58 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYN4i-0007jI-9I for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:45:52 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41338 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OYN4h-0007ty-Hs for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:45:51 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=37537 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OYN4b-0007rs-DD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:45:46 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYN4a-0006bt-4V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:45:45 -0400 Original-Received: from iwfs.imcode.com ([82.115.149.64]:40866 helo=gate.verona.se) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYN4X-0006as-JF; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:45:41 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost.localdomain (IDENT:1005@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gate.verona.se (8.13.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id o6CHjc7Q008220; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:45:38 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Lennart Borgman's message of "Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:08:43 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127113 Archived-At: Lennart Borgman writes: > On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 6:54 PM, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: >> =A0 > What words you use won't hinder that. =A0You will always encounter >> =A0 > new definitions for words, if one goes about renaming everything >> =A0 > to what is currently popular it will only cause mass confusion. >> >> =A0 The words matter since it raises complexity to use unfamiliar words. >> >> Recently I've started using Eclipse as part of my job, and it uses >> several words whos definition I'm not familiar with; for example view, >> perspective and workspace. =A0I've used Eclipse daily now for four >> months, and the terminology still doesn't stick for me. =A0Does this >> make Eclipse harder to use? Not at all. =A0Does it make it more complex? >> Not really. =A0They are just words, with some meaning. > > You say it does not make it more complex to you. That is ok of course. > It is how you experience it. > > But consider a person who have used Eclipse, is familiar with the > words "view", "perspective" and "workspace". It that person want to > try Emacs instead he might try a quick look at the documentation and > there he searches for these words, since those happens to be important > to him/her. > > Woldn't that be a bit harder if different words where used in Emacs > for the same things? You are arguing in general terms. I think arguing specifics might be more fruitful. For instance, lets assume Emacs will use the terms cut and paste instead of killing/yanking, what will be the consequences? - some new users might maybe start using Emacs - all the emacs documentation would need to be changed - the Emacs lisp api needs to be changed - old code will break - 3rd party code will break As opposed to status quo: - Some new users will wonder why cutting and pasting wont work like they are used to. They might then RTFM and find out that Emacs does things differently, but they can use CUA mode if they want to. So, IMHO, this specific case will be a lot of pain for little gain. OTOH, when we introduce a new concept in Emacs that is already well known in other environments, like "tabs" we should call them tabs and not pseudo-frames, or somesuch.=20 BTW as an anecdote, I had no trouble learning my daughter to do a specific task in Emacs. She uses the computer a lot, but only the mouse for copy/paste, so using the Emacs bindings for the task in question was in fact easier than she was used to. --=20 Joakim Verona