From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: cua-mode and the tutorial Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:02:16 +0200 Message-ID: References: <44C8F069.1070002@student.lu.se> <44EB151A.2000102@student.lu.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1156259056 4579 80.91.229.2 (22 Aug 2006 15:04:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:04:16 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Aug 22 17:04:14 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GFXnH-0007bg-0r for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:03:55 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GFXnG-0001AW-IV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:03:54 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1GFXn1-00019I-Om for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:03:39 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1GFXmz-00018K-Lk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:03:38 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GFXmz-00018G-Ds for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:03:37 -0400 Original-Received: from [195.41.46.235] (helo=pfepa.post.tele.dk) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1GFXuc-0001QG-7Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:11:30 -0400 Original-Received: from kfs-l.imdomain.dk.cua.dk (unknown [80.165.4.124]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 2C79DFAC05A; Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:03:33 +0200 (CEST) Original-To: Lennart Borgman In-Reply-To: <44EB151A.2000102@student.lu.se> (Lennart Borgman's message of "Tue, 22 Aug 2006 16:30:50 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:58718 Archived-At: Lennart Borgman writes: > Kim F. Storm wrote: >> The first instruction is to type C-v ... and it doesn't work >> as described! >> > Do you mean that it does not work when cua-mode is enabled? Yes, and neither with viper enabled. > Well, it > is a problem. One solution would be to remove CUA mode from the > tutorial buffer as you suggests. However I feel uncomfortable with > that solution. It puts a burden on the user, "please learn this now, > but later on you are going to use that". True. > > A possible solution is perhaps to tell replace C-v in the tutorial > with the actual key to use. However that requires rewriting the text > since there are also sentences like "do it by holding down the CONTROL > key while typing v". (And there are many languages to rewrite.) Maybe > that sentence could be removed? It could. But again there are many languages to consider, and this is part of text files, not generated in Lisp. >> is partially or even completely hidden, so the whole point of the >> tutorial is lost (you have to know how to scroll before you can >> learn how to scroll ...). >> > That is a good point. However most users will still be able to scroll > with the arrow keys and the mouse. Yes. >> It would be much better if you just placed a few yellow lines >> near the top with the following wording: >> >> Some of the standard key bindings described in this tutorial >> have been modified, so Emacs may behave differently from >> what you learn here. Click here for more details: [Details] >> > Having less information there is maybe a solution, yes. And using help > buffer for details. However I do believe that the tutorial should try > to tell the actual key bindings that the user will use. Is not that > much easier for those that use CUA mode for example? But it gives it in the wrong language (except for the English tutorial). Having just a few lines in English is ok IMO. >> And then restore all key bindings (if possible) to their default >> inside the tutorial. >> > This was my original thought, but now I think it is important to let > users of CUA mode and Viper mode learn about basic key bindings > differences. I think a lot of users will have CUA mode enabled. I hope so :-) but with cua-mode enabled, many basic things in the tutorial could be explained quite differently -- but there is no way to do than in >1 languages. > I welcome ideas. It is not very easy to make this working well. I can > see we have slightly different opinions about what the tutorial should > do, teach actual bindings or default bindings or maybe both. I tried > the last. I don't really care that much (it's a long time since I needed to run the tutorial, and I never got used to the native bindings anyway). But I still think it is confusing to offer a tutorial where the first instruction given doesn't work if either of cua-mode or viper-mode is enabled. Substituting the key with the actual key isn't good either. E.g. printing instead of C-v isn't really good either ... my keyboard doesn't have a key. And we really do want to teach the standard emacs bindings. Maybe you could highlight [yellow background] C-v (and similar bindings used in the tutorial) if they have non-standard bindings. Then users will be alerted to the fact that they don't work as expected and they should consult the instructions at the beginning of the tutorial! You could even put a tool-tip on them to show the actual binding to use instead. I agree that it is difficult to do this right -- given that the tutorial exists in many languages. -- Kim F. Storm http://www.cua.dk