From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David O'Toole Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: un-deprecating CL Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:32:21 -0400 Message-ID: References: <864phxjj03.fsf@macs.hw.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1189791968 27908 80.91.229.12 (14 Sep 2007 17:46:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:46:08 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 14 19:45:57 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1IWF3S-00087N-AZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 19:34:10 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWF3R-0005g6-LQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:34:09 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1IWF3O-0005fB-7L for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:34:06 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1IWF3M-0005ek-T5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:34:05 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWF3M-0005eg-JV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:34:04 -0400 Original-Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1IWF3M-0006GQ-73 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:34:04 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IWF2O-0004Wz-3k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 19:33:04 +0200 Original-Received: from 24-183-185-28.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com ([24.183.185.28]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 19:33:04 +0200 Original-Received: from dto by 24-183-185-28.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 19:33:04 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 49 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 24-183-185-28.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAgMAAAAqbBEUAAAADFBMVEWWKwTDUQbecQ/1kCFb ic5lAAAACXBIWXMAAAsTAAALEwEAmpwYAAAAB3RJTUUH1wELDREeiIClpgAAAa5JREFUKM8tj7Fu nEAQhmcjkSJNDslrJW+DJW/qI2I2uaSwG4iMpfhpOOloUgWJRYImTUAy75EiZYo7iR5bZvIvNlSf vn/+maWEn79D5RwF4VnMnFZZDojZ4Lc222eOdJjAmPTgYC4SwxyFfNjnjlizPiOd76rKkTHhx0hp V5cwvprItrOvNsZsSNlu8SaOOSKVNVKVLWIhkfrSjH+cb/sMKJvxX4mZ+NKbTh5cS8zXRPRpkIe8 pRhlRG9GWfwMRxsKXt1fLT6mo4jeq8UK9mgD805JPa4FF5hRT524BtUrzFfiTaIA9OutNzF7UPcf pOmJo9iDLGssMiuIj+H9EeAOMAG0hx/yHAu2RMF3kf4EYID2sYF4qwGvh1FO/hxOYBBziPEO5vyv yIQY32xJ8ZP49+w4R+wrlk4TWc4Lom8iyxEzWf7zxQxUsANYQDuQzfJ6S+edCGKFdS/Qo/rQ1gnx rUzNQIfS1UzBHV6APZnLik3QrWZf9jVHtns84uq0/F1yrHH0MFBZ9Zxs7CDeFOWcsrIjTpsoT2fm EOcc29VwjDJ5RFuWzpeJGUVO/fAf1lkLWqs5deQAAAAASUVORK5CYII= User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/23.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:+u8SG7H8eBSXHD+VscbkEhAr4Z0= X-Detected-Kernel: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:78902 Archived-At: Hello fellow Emacsians, I would like to point out that my comments were made informally on my blog, and that the notes at the end about "radical action" and such are intended to be tongue-in-cheek. I had planned to revise it further before bothering the emacs-devel list with the issue; in particular I would have made it sound less like a rant :-) but also would have tried to bolster my arguments a little and see if there were other workarounds. For example, i saw the following in the Emacs TODO file: > ** Implement popular parts of the rest of the CL functions as compiler > macros in cl-macs. and it occurred to me that I might be able to help. My point in this is not to complain, but to see if I can help improve things by helping other developers write their Emacs Lisp programs more easily. (I have found it easier to read and write my own programs since learning the CL package, although it took a significant investment in time to learn it.) Joe Wells writes: > I just saw this wonderful essay by Dave O'Toole entitled > > "(require 'cl) considered harmful" considered harmful > > at this URL: > > http://dto.freeshell.org/blog/blog-2007-09-07-2323.html > > I agree completely with its reasoning. > > Therefore, I propose that the warnings in the manual against relying > on CL and the byte-compiler warnings when you use a CL function should > both be removed. > > I hope this suggestion is helpful. > > -- > Joe -- David O'Toole dto@gnu.org http://dto.freeshell.org/notebook/