From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Barry Fishman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs vista build failures Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:05:28 -0400 Message-ID: References: <871w1njq32.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <87iquzxgtk.fsf@saeurebad.de> <4884CFEF.8040404@gmail.com> <48861A51.1090401@gmail.com> <20080724080727.GA3448@muc.de> <863alzd1mi.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz> <20080726080304.GA1419@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1217214069 30950 80.91.229.12 (28 Jul 2008 03:01:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 03:01:09 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 28 05:01:57 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KNIzg-0001vf-Ac for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 05:01:52 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39572 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KNIym-0002zZ-Ex for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 23:00:56 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KNGz3-00009t-4L for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:53:05 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KNGz0-00009R-VQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:53:04 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=58409 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KNGz0-00009I-NI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:53:02 -0400 Original-Received: from alsmtp01oc.mail2world.com ([74.202.142.144]:3440) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KNGyv-0007wV-L3; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:52:57 -0400 Original-Received: from mail pickup service by alsmtp01oc.mail2world.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 17:05:06 -0700 auth-sender: bfishman@alum.rpi.edu Original-Received: from 71.0.147.208 unverified ([71.0.147.208]) by alsmtp01oc.mail2world.com with Mail2World SMTP Server; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 17:05:05 -0700 In-Reply-To: (Richard M. Stallman's message of "Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:14:40 -0400") User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jul 2008 00:05:06.0625 (UTC) FILETIME=[978FC310:01C8F045] X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Windows 2000 SP4, XP SP1+ X-Greylist: delayed 2829 seconds by postgrey-1.27 at monty-python; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:52:56 EDT X-Greylist: delayed 2830 seconds by postgrey-1.27 at monty-python; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:52:57 EDT X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 23:00:44 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:101618 Archived-At: Richard M Stallman writes: > Barry Fishman writes: >> I think you may be loosing sight of some things by still focusing just >> on gaining freedom. A GNU system now exists that people can use >> reliably and productively. Many of us prefer it over the proprietary >> alternatives, even if they were free. Isn't that real freedom. For >> many of us you have already won. > > Not very many. Less than 10% of computer users use GNU/Linux, > and nearly all of them run non-free software on or in it. > The people who have fully rejected nonfree software are few. I think there are two issues here. First it is very difficult to get people, even those who are politically concerned, to understand the importance of the issues involved with free software. This does require constant educational effort. I'm not arguing against that. But one needs a platform that is worth using. Not just a cheap Vista clone. The Japanese started out by making cheap copies of American autos. It took them only so far. They really gained sales by using the quality control methods that US corporations rejected, and started making better products. Now American auto companies try to copy the Japanese. >> Why not make GNOME work more like Emacs. Whats the point of a C >> based GTK it you don't use it through a Lisp like layer? Why is so >> much of my Gnome configuration buried in zillions of directories >> filled with ugly XML files. Why can't I query it with simple REPL? > > I agree with you there. The sad thing is that GNOME was initially > based on Scheme, and it was possible to do these things. They do not > listen to me much, so I save my efforts with them for the issues > that are essential to our campaign for freedom. This whole thread has been about changing the direction of Emacs, dropping the support for non-free platforms, and integrating it better within GNU. My initial concern was that this seemed to mean that Emacs might loose its identity which made the time my job required me to spend on proprietary environments much less horrible. However, its been quite a few years since this has occurred. But if Emacs is going to be integrated within GNU, I just hope it involves more time shaping the direction of GTK, making improvements in ELisp/Guile, and making a better framework on which things like Gnome can be built. For example, one should ultimately be able to do things like have GnuCash use Emacs/TTY code to display in text windows. -- Barry Fishman