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[217.227.105.233]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u1-20020a1709064ac100b0078d424e8c09sm855831ejt.77.2022.11.11.05.01.56 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 11 Nov 2022 05:01:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: (=?utf-8?Q?=22Jo=C3=A3o_T=C3=A1vora=22's?= message of "Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:09:04 +0000") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::533; envelope-from=gerd.moellmann@gmail.com; helo=mail-ed1-x533.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:299564 Archived-At: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora writes: > On Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 09:35 Gerd M=C3=B6llmann = wrote: > I don't agree. Before shorthands, a symbol had one name, after, it can > have many. > > This is incorrect. You're confusing the text manifestation of a symbol > in a Lisp form before it is read (as in CL:READ) with the symbol > itself, which has only one name. This didn't and couldn't change with > shorthands. Then let me try to express myself clearer. (I hoped to get away with something more informal.) Before shorthands there was a 1:1 correspondence between the printed representation of a symbol and the symbol you get when reading the printed representation. Symbol-name returned a string that's the printed representation. (And let's please not also consider escaping in general, print-escape and print1 vs princ and such.) After shorthands, there is a printed representation in the code, which when read gives you a symbol with a name that can be different from the printed representation. In fact, many printed represenations exist, theoretically mapping to the same symbol. If that's not changing semantics, I don't know. Changing the semantics of symbols, because of the different meaning of what symbol-name returns. > Deciding to use it not use a shorthand is no different from deciding > to use or not use package qualification for a symbol in CL packages. I wasn't talking about CL packages at all, just before/after shorthands. > > Neither changes the name of a symbol, just the manifestation is > different. If you force them to be the same thing, then no namespacing > symbol is possible at all > > If you conflate symbol name and symbol designation/manifestation in > source files , you'll have problems implementing any package system > (CL, shorthands, whatever) and you confuse people trying to understand > any Lisp package system, i.e. you confuse this discussion. Let's try > to avoid that :) Who's confused? Anyone? :-)