From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "John Wiegley" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Contributors and maintainers (Was: [PATCH] Add shell-quasiquote.) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 16:34:12 -0700 Organization: New Artisans LLC Message-ID: References: <87si59wj42.fsf@T420.taylan> <878u6znii9.fsf@T420.taylan> <877fmjj9p6.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87zizfm2dq.fsf@T420.taylan> <871tcr7yvq.fsf@fastmail.com> <87mvvfm0bd.fsf@T420.taylan> <56250803.5080601@cs.ucla.edu> <87a8ren5ys.fsf@T420.taylan> <56259BB1.3070908@cs.ucla.edu> <878u6ykmvt.fsf@T420.taylan> <87h9llvo98.fsf@members.fsf.org> <5626622A.3090707@yandex.ru> <87zizdijbp.fsf@T420.taylan> <56267302.7050606@yandex.ru> <87io61igyu.fsf@T420.taylan> <56267CDF.6010201@yandex.ru> <87wpuhh15s.fsf@T420.taylan> <562683B9.1060305@yandex.ru> <83y4exe71v.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1445384164 24085 80.91.229.3 (20 Oct 2015 23:36:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 23:36:04 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Taylan Ulrich =?utf-8?Q?Bay=C4=B1rl=C4=B1=2FK?= =?utf-8?Q?ammer?= To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Oct 21 01:35:59 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZogRh-00027r-SO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 01:35:58 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48473 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZogRh-00037k-8V for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:35:57 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:39525) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZogRM-00037e-Fw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:35:37 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZogRJ-0003Vy-2V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:35:36 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pa0-x232.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c03::232]:36051) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZogRI-0003Vr-Sj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:35:32 -0400 Original-Received: by pacfv9 with SMTP id fv9so36299692pac.3 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 16:35:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:organization:message-id :references:user-agent:mail-followup-to:mime-version:content-type; bh=20F5FAetz1TZ25B2u9/E2QOAV2vOC8KrJMRJS5eSTRo=; b=FMyE5Y3Q4QozHPnQF76ki14cnw584u8E8ODcpX4lAmttkb+ylmyJvHCpVQl+0EK2Pk zYm8nwbnI6L2xaSLJFB+Iv3ek5e5ZHf/lZu9RO92Gqc02gTz/3JC3bbKjFJtfnSGBOQ4 nwXArOLCQGsHcIG7TFzoOz1R084AVSh2mEhSDZC+lQ12D+Ae3YtlFu5w5aO9UDDePji+ nqpmki2NLSnjGeQz8ORv8KbpyYPPU48k5c0PtSANcxkOY5dPD/j78mnPAn8PX6+jKKxY t0qaiEVFeiBrwn9KqLJ1wPnnEHIo9GLhdRuBflNaHX/iG0duknw0+xS0S0l6hR3G88iR SSfg== X-Received: by 10.68.94.69 with SMTP id da5mr6883554pbb.65.1445384132358; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 16:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id st5sm5718941pab.42.2015.10.20.16.35.31 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 20 Oct 2015 16:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 04F97F598CF4; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 16:35:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83y4exe71v.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:19:56 +0300") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (darwin) Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org, taylanbayirli@gmail.com (Taylan Ulrich =?utf-8?Q?Bay=C4=B1rl=C4=B1=2FKammer?=) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c03::232 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:192244 Archived-At: >>>>> Eli Zaretskii writes: > That's also my point, exactly. Any code in Emacs should use standard APIs, > and if those APIs need to be fixed, they should be fixed regardless. But the > need to be fixed does not mean the APIs should be bypassed. This message is not just to Taylan, but to others who wish to contribute to Emacs in the future. The argument transpiring between Taylan and Eli has attempted to paint a picture wherein the proposed change is "obviously" right (as seen by the submitter) and "obviously" unacceptable (as seen by the maintainer). This clash has led to much heated debate. Part of the debate seems to be a lack of appreciation of the difference between contributors and maintainers. You see, it is not sufficient to have a good idea, no matter how clear it is to its submitter. *We* maintain Emacs, and so the change must satisfy *us*, no matter how thick our skulls may be. If we ask for clarification that Wednesday follows Tuesday, either you provide us with that clarification, or the change doesn't go in. Period. Our work is done on a volunteer basis, and so we choose what we want to support in the future, and what we don't. Like it or not, Eli is 100% correct and right, as maintainer, to ask for clarifications how and when he sees fit -- and to expect those clarification in a format he wants to see them in! This will remain true until he steps down as maintainer, or someone else fills his shoes. No submitter can brow-beat us into accepting a patch because they think it is "clear" or "right" or "obvious". This isn't how collaboration works in the free software world. We decide who has commit rights, and we reserve the right to reject and revert commits. If anyone does not like this, be forewarned. Otherwise, please show Eli and the other developers here the respect and deference they deserve, especially in light of *how much time* they have given freely to the Emacs project. Are they ideal individuals who always express themselves perfectly? Probably not. But they are our maintainers, and if you can't respect them, you shouldn't be contributing here. It will only frustrate you. Lastly, if anyone is having persistent, negative experiences with some aspect of the Emacs developer community, please approach me directly. My e-mail is johnw@newartisans.com. It is my vehement interest that we find a successful path for all involved, and I will work with anyone to help make this possible. John