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Rankin" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Improving aesthetics & readability of backquote Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 12:06:17 +1000 Message-ID: References: <20190520085241.GA5136@ACM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="35569"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: mu4e 1.2.0; emacs 26.2 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue May 21 04:07:10 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hSuBH-00093X-To for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 21 May 2019 04:07:08 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45064 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hSuBG-0002iN-IK for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 20 May 2019 22:07:06 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:44050) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hSuAf-0002i6-Hh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 May 2019 22:06:30 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hSuAe-00031X-HN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 May 2019 22:06:29 -0400 Original-Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.25]:40723) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hSuAe-000307-4k; Mon, 20 May 2019 22:06:28 -0400 Original-Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 081B66C2; Mon, 20 May 2019 22:06:25 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 20 May 2019 22:06:26 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=paulwrankin.com; h=references:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :mime-version:content-type; s=fm3; bh=hcwqiRdEptsZRZCvwx2fOWR6nU Z9OaPnEHC05cNoPj8=; b=avQRaKk0WyykEsrsA0P1J551kUNF8PwixU0+aQy50m 2SiYKl8bn+JtUTU9RYLNc0m7GuV4XsbM9i1T6BCVKkcMHAUU//tfBDJjTC9hc3c3 Cka9NN+WKA+cs7AJCrIVtgHgMaJKaarGUf6BnHL/sMarbb95s8Y/yinv3Yp+9awv Etu8b3OkbN/apQYkVul/KBq3Vq+6wGd7HVqJi5yNkB616ohs/1IntijrPg54Ir5/ 2SQ24KxGUogAis8qEgxFmt0+h6WIRmBjS/UkKVJxQDFTLT0lpnRJGwuICl9YF/l0 mRa+7wPgubnroVrRhnmOqPwULhX8O6/sGd8lcpr/a1Rg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=hcwqiR dEptsZRZCvwx2fOWR6nUZ9OaPnEHC05cNoPj8=; b=XPQ1WJnCKOpmeBlg8iCsqd amrMe1CB5TR5WfN+hkxEx4hD4mKwe3ScjKW8gH8RdbMIU2gJOdir6foks8hxoJy1 Z2Wt1PzvCAlp0igjqXBw3ZrXWQxb2llaC07tSYBFaxk0WggMJ6iesBDVWCbGBcrb SUP59GhNmRk7vU8HljFJd3AFN8jGuvgOE0JhmmXGYetYfGJ3cQKeFfi0FeLVLi+s nixvq1gS62XvKKUcZ9PnwcC5jeC/BpejJi+PyDBy742TJcWoDlhmWzwjLfZzV1HF FOs7+h0nG25O3fZf//dfCd/KDOqtyMYrlGz7uKwcwalN2EhDb8I/DPFlwxykK59w == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduuddruddtledgheefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpehffgfhvffujgffkfggtgesthdtre dttdertdenucfhrhhomhepfdfrrghulhcuhgdrucftrghnkhhinhdfuceohhgvlhhlohes phgruhhlfihrrghnkhhinhdrtghomheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpehprghulhifrhgrnhhkih hnrdgtohhmnecukfhppeduvddtrddvvddrudejjedruddunecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhl fhhrohhmpehhvghllhhosehprghulhifrhgrnhhkihhnrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrh fuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Original-Received: from localhost (unknown [120.22.177.11]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 1A93A103CF; Mon, 20 May 2019 22:06:23 -0400 (EDT) In-reply-to: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 64.147.123.25 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:236833 Archived-At: On Tue, May 21 2019, Richard Stallman wrote: > Backquote is a well-known construct, a de-facto standard since > over 40 > years ago. For a while, backquote in Emacs Lisp was > incompatible with > the standard, because I was trying to keep the code small. But > in the > 90s we changed Emacs Lisp to fit the standard. > > To change it is unthinkable. I'm not suggesting to change it, in the sense I take that you mean as unthinkable, i.e. that change means doing away with the existing implementation. I'm only suggesting to give people (particularly those new to Emacs) the freedom to choose a more literal syntax that fits with the aesthetics of the surrounding code. This is not dissimilar to the aforementioned rx library. Like the backquote construct, regular expression is an efficient but cryptic syntax, and rx gives people the freedom to choose a more literal syntax (which also fits with the aesthetics of the surrounding code) if they find the real syntax too cryptic and scary. They can use it like training wheels before switching to the real syntax (which was my introduction to regular expressions). This is all I'm suggesting -- free software giving people freedom, rather than adhering to the preferences of someone 40 years ago. Given that at least annually there's a huge thread on the mailing list or elsewhere about how Emacs is fading into irrelevance (!) and the dire need to attract more users (!), I think it's worthwhile really trying to look at things from the perspective of new users -- backquote may well be a 40-year-old standard, but before learning Emacs Lisp, I'd never heard of it, and I assume most people are the same. -- https://www.paulwrankin.com