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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2023 09:20:05 +0100 Message-ID: References: <871qd8sfdx.fsf@posteo.net> <838r7g8pys.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcbrgnr.fsf@posteo.net> <25924.21015.19614.951576@orion.rgrjr.com> <87bkc4jpja.fsf@dataswamp.org> <12da6bcb-1818-7fbe-12af-8d4607724332@gutov.dev> <87il6bt4z0.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30910"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= , Alan Mackenzie , Dmitry Gutov , =?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B6rn?= Bidar , emacs-devel To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 10 09:21:01 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r1MlA-0007uA-3y for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 10 Nov 2023 09:21:00 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r1MkP-00018e-4B; Fri, 10 Nov 2023 03:20:13 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r1MkN-00018V-A8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Nov 2023 03:20:11 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ej1-x635.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::635]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r1MkL-0007hn-I3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Nov 2023 03:20:10 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ej1-x635.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-9e28724ac88so290623066b.2 for ; Fri, 10 Nov 2023 00:20:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1699604407; x=1700209207; darn=gnu.org; h=mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=gE7FRk4hlDgdaYgammI4kcK2rT6e2Dno3NW4xJLPFPc=; b=PDJHR6J4iPXNP/3dF+SWazu8aPi/rkCaA9Xht6tff+9TuxF8hsr9R+Yzqdzk//k3p4 iafUMlxpq87e4Tg3ggAxVVjL51AdL41ov6ej6QuW0uP0FmkOurJ3RqZnvsasCaefVasX p4TrCVVymr0V68ieD3eyMgFpy8TB8pMWC0tw7EyEVBuTw/G6EHEBRCsieGr5zNDuYWW/ 5HK9y3BBpHWnGygCfrL+UsKHmm+iNjmId4mPuPcLNaHxgRl5jH4Z9LbqkY7Ia5KkUflP LXTSSIOAFlHc1sBm65VvhBNIZNx9tcqUb9GnBujHR2aMhDIe3sy0FchBWm5RrifrnnPJ cFzQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1699604407; x=1700209207; h=mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=gE7FRk4hlDgdaYgammI4kcK2rT6e2Dno3NW4xJLPFPc=; b=gL9sIX9wMM1Gj0n++eyY83I3W13okOU6T7qxm8FLscrrE4dzIGLX9gclzFutvSAQQ/ aoCM43nZ+ORL5wyB7mz8GPUF2mpIYitKJ9cwGJPVynXbO5lGKmQs7YKPueZ9WPgALSFz Pae78voEjXD9Wa61OGWyBfKMlHyC9qNAHEGyM5mzhWYDcGUa0w9u4U4hh653t+embsuc yQBMSYjPdNHsFLj1db5+FV62rMtPbaCjF/K1cMmREinMwN7ekZjXfAlfMfvsgBI9Z3uE RwhYVSVP20pUjuD89ceJBdigMmcjSRSjrMgYmo7yHR82zALFdX3h08UiDEWzf21CVKeQ HdFQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyXyP0NZ6eYKSXt+IKwe49yCAOFK10Q7YeAmIMLKkst7V+9F1FT dxRWOf/GOqpFuQ/RdvqP60x7ktZMYco= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHOPBbUEh1+1Wh+C48+Sv/woj/z7zfdr7cDRvXV+SqJ/fMcNspt1wxn7Q0KWQguvJhxkVpZYg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:9448:b0:9bf:7ae7:fd6c with SMTP id dl8-20020a170907944800b009bf7ae7fd6cmr5995812ejc.10.1699604406580; Fri, 10 Nov 2023 00:20:06 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from Pro.fritz.box (pd9e36b87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. [217.227.107.135]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o19-20020a17090608d300b0099cc3c7ace2sm3631058eje.140.2023.11.10.00.20.05 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 10 Nov 2023 00:20:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87il6bt4z0.fsf@yahoo.com> (Po Lu's message of "Thu, 09 Nov 2023 21:45:55 +0800") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::635; envelope-from=gerd.moellmann@gmail.com; helo=mail-ej1-x635.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312464 Archived-At: Po Lu writes: > Respect for volunteers is no doubt laudable, but it is very much an > position to be considered alone which everything you've presented above > does not impact and nobody takes exception to. From it, and even > supposing for the sake of argument that everything else you've said is > incontrovertible fact, it doesn't really follow that we should not seek > to reduce the incidence of cl-lib usage in core code. Now I can't be > certain that is the object of your militating, if you will, though > promoting cl-set-difference and cl-position as alternatives to hallowed > Emacs Lisp constructs does suggest so, but the principle argument > against these constructs is that they are alien to the small group of > individuals charged with trudging through code where people want to make > use of them. So no contentions resting on their virtues and > distinctions rather than their prevalence among us can hold water... (Sorry if I don't cite the whole mail. Please re-add what you find important.) Could you perhaps formulate a plan for what should be done? I personally find something concrete much easier to handle than a back-and-forth of arguments.