From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Daniel Fleischer Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [External] : Re: [PATCH] Package Installation in Tutorial Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2021 23:19:07 +0200 Message-ID: References: <864k7ro07p.fsf@mail.linkov.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="3955"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (darwin) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:IKhhIxAdIE6eqx28GogrYiZRkcs= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 03 22:19:56 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mtFyG-0000kI-RE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2021 22:19:56 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56174 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mtFyF-0000V4-Bc for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2021 16:19:55 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:40092) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mtFxd-0008HF-JP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2021 16:19:17 -0500 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]:42410) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mtFxc-0004jB-5U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2021 16:19:17 -0500 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mtFxZ-000ABs-Qs for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Dec 2021 22:19:13 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: 5 X-Spam_score: 0.5 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:280872 Archived-At: Great points, let me comment on a few of them. > How do you propose to know what is most useful > to them? That's easy: because I was a beginner and I struggled with some of these things and because I use other editors as well and try to see what is offered elsewhere to try and understand what people tend to expect nowadays, as part of my drive to try and increase the Emacs community by having more people try it and having it easier for beginners. > Why also package management? That's my question. > Why is that something needed for _starting_ to > use Emacs? By "package management" I guess you > mean installing and deleting packages? Why is > that something you need to learn at the outset? That's the crux: in my experience, installing a package is the FIRST thing I do. I used to work with Sublime text, Atom, VS Code. The first thing I did was to install a package for the type of file I worked on, whether it was JSON, Latex, Python. VSCode even has a popup when you open a file asking you to download the appropriate package. I gave JSON as an example because there is no built-in "support" but it can be easily downloaded. People expect the editor to be lean and to install packages for the type of files they work on - it's part of what they call to setup the environment. Emacs is different, it's opposite of lean. But even then, there are many things Emacs doesn't have built-in. People will open Clojure, Rust, GO files or what have you and stare and ask what do I do now. Downloading "clojure-mode" or "rust-mode" or "go-mode" is one command away, and that's what I want to people to see in the tutorial. To reiterate, I believe the first thing a user does with a new editor is have it ready to work with some file-type of interest which the editor might not support built-in, and this is even before configuring anything general in the editor. Starting to configure the editor requires some commitment, which was not earned yet. > I'm again asking what _you_ look to, as evidence > that installing & deleting packages is something > that first-timers really need, as part of our > learn-by-doing tutorial. I feel like that's not fair. In the short time I've been here I was able to see features being implemented which were NOT backed up by any external data or polls (discussions here are not included). Moreover, some updates were motivated by individual bug reports which is a sample of one. Also what's the downside here? having the tutorial too long? If you're asking if it's a low hanging fruit, compared to teaching users about customization, then it is. I don't see anything wrong with it. -- Daniel Fleischer