From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "John Wiegley" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "If you're still seeing problems, please reopen." [Was: bug#25148:] Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:59:24 -0700 Message-ID: References: <20191117113054.49837.qmail@mail.muc.de> <87pnhq7mxg.fsf@gnus.org> <87bltaz9g4.fsf@telefonica.net> <834kz25qp9.fsf@gnu.org> <87y2wexsv1.fsf@telefonica.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="167833"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (darwin) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar?= Fuentes Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 18 18:59:47 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iWlJS-000hVz-RE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 18:59:46 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37852 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iWlJR-0004I3-KI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 12:59:45 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33987) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iWlJI-0004HK-V5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 12:59:38 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:58800) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iWlJH-0007Bn-Rp; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 12:59:36 -0500 Original-Received: from auth2-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.228]:52653) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA256:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1iWlJH-0000Fw-9F; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 12:59:35 -0500 Original-Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailauth.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93F2D22690; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 12:59:34 -0500 (EST) Original-Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 18 Nov 2019 12:59:34 -0500 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudegiedgkeehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefhvffujgffkfhffgggtgfgsehtqh ertddtreejnecuhfhrohhmpedflfhohhhnucghihgvghhlvgihfdcuoehjohhhnhifsehg nhhurdhorhhgqeenucffohhmrghinhepnhgvfigrrhhtihhsrghnshdrtghomhenucfkph epieeirddvtddurdehledrhedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehjohhhnhif odhmvghsmhhtphgruhhthhhpvghrshhonhgrlhhithihqdeikeejkedtleeggedqudejje ehfeekudeiqdhjohhhnhifpeepghhnuhdrohhrghesnhgvfigrrhhtihhsrghnshdrtgho mhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Original-Received: from localhost (unknown [66.201.59.50]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 833618005A; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 12:59:33 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <87y2wexsv1.fsf@telefonica.net> (=?utf-8?Q?=22=C3=93scar?= Fuentes"'s message of "Sun, 17 Nov 2019 19:25:38 +0100") Mail-Followup-To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar?= Fuentes , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:242390 Archived-At: >>>>> "=C3=93F" =3D=3D =C3=93scar Fuentes writes: =C3=93F> Debbugs is the only user-facing bug tracker I know that requires s= tudying =C3=93F> its magic incantations to complete tasks which are trivial on any = other =C3=93F> system. Not to mention that, after all that studying, it still won= 't =C3=93F> provide basic features which exist and are trivial to use elsewher= e. Just to add my 2c here: I've never encountered an actually good issue track= er. Either it's pretty and leads to unmanagable chaos (GitHub Issues), or it's ugly and requires undue patience and expertise, yet gives experts great reporting and control (Jira, Bugzilla, etc). As for debbugs, let's be politik and just say we know it isn't a modern bug tracker. But if Eli is cranking out fixes for bugs, then I'm happy with it.= If users are getting their fingers burnt, I'd rather see if we can band-aid th= at problem until we find something else that works equally well for our developers who are pouring uncountable hours of their lives into this proje= ct. Like it or not, they get the priority right now. Being nice to new users is great, but until they become contributors and ease our workload, serving th= em can't be the priority. The goal of Emacs isn't to win hearts and minds, it's to be a good editor and a flagship for the FSF. If RMS decides that "flagsh= ip" means user experience, that's one thing; if it means a truly solid code bas= e, that's another. Yes, both is the perfect world; but there are times when we have to choose one over the other. For me, right now, I'd rather have one E= li than a thousand new users who merely praise us for the excellence of our bug reporting mechanism. Now, I'm all for there being a group of us who care deeply about the user experience, and who work with Eli to optimize that experience as best we can while still keeping his workflow running smoothly. I'd be more than willing= to spend time coordinating such efforts. To date, my own experience with debbugs is: 1. I don't know how to close a bug. 2. I don't know how to find the information that tells me how to close a bug, not without spending about 15 minutes Googling. 3. So I e-mail Eli, "Halp, please close bug XXX". 4. Eli, being more responsive that I ever expect a volunteer to ever be, closes it before the day ends. --=20 John Wiegley GPG fingerprint =3D 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2