From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?Gerd_M=C3=B6llmann?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes, people want to use cl-lib? Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2023 16:49:46 +0100 Message-ID: References: <83a5ru7w0b.fsf@gnu.org> <837cmy7tut.fsf@gnu.org> <834ji27so1.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12951"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: paaguti@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 03 16:50:44 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qywRX-0003BB-HF for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 16:50:43 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qywQl-0005oF-QK; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 11:49:55 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qywQj-0005nq-Rd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 11:49:53 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-x131.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::131]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qywQi-0000sy-Cr; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 11:49:53 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-507c78d258fso2892703e87.2; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 08:49:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1699026589; x=1699631389; darn=gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=myUMRuKYXWiLLz/EvMDV5lw0ir9W9V++2Nd+j5m32gU=; b=I77XalTMvce2NF0ohnz4WmeMtRQS7JJbo4GnZcKY8maPjHJPYtm7VMJ5gVR1ek7aY0 Gi8MJ0HuWwziA2gsVrJaufmpgs4rhtO0Q4xk14gDyZgNkVirz1YXhvNQPyqyFfzbCuDc LC2mOQXIgkoHtZaM6iPRCy34ux3Ei/BZjvvAl3NhloxMn0F/mwlvypIsLqtVJTN6CatC uNel6uscKU1JcMp3Og7mV/cm1rnOZ9iBbT4d3fCSDk2K4dPHwfccy4zB0zQgbio1v7gp hnxtTjHlAl7DxMGzhoX5y7Cc1UTcW8zT2A/4Kho28oeJf9aggxCpObxEMXtYwy0JwJCR skzw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1699026589; x=1699631389; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=myUMRuKYXWiLLz/EvMDV5lw0ir9W9V++2Nd+j5m32gU=; b=jkTJbWcLQ6VWhyDXD8gahbmfIN/h5pS1y7h7j0v+5maSr2sPHGpAYbFUhjur9W1QrF kTGAIyeYg3lI6Dhboh5/Pk//+cd+EhNHtu0Apw3L3FuPOoKsCT8sXclLqnxnACuqshBw n4DH03DNaNJ/e58Xgik0sONnjwGCfmCkiBQc8srJZ1KzFJGnmHzRobpoDTbGT4UhhO9x tD5KC6aLp5uQeIckPYu5cfRf0RWr59eMqTGMRzYZyUaB6vv57fOf8c+lbkCePO/3KbS1 e4sx9cwVYmNux9W5ok73VcOdsM2V8q8w1HbKa3kXsAEOZ/Ju20Ev6Pyav0IBDlwtxFap HHUg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx1+oGEtU1iKOheJJQjtX/InBeNX87o+HfpUEz2MJuD9DImh552 Q31Gl3HgjKrdAhh5nNetWmm1i8JetaE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHrMV6tungXanBdiaItqvCPpyfVN7SNmG7uSDK8L1dHSFesyu06uJAIy3f9y4ox1qv84Oustw== X-Received: by 2002:a19:7611:0:b0:509:3bba:e8a with SMTP id c17-20020a197611000000b005093bba0e8amr7215405lff.39.1699026589453; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 08:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from Pro.fritz.box (p4fe3a0aa.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. [79.227.160.170]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t8-20020a5d42c8000000b00327cd5e5ac1sm2181141wrr.1.2023.11.03.08.49.47 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 03 Nov 2023 08:49:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <834ji27so1.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 03 Nov 2023 17:39:10 +0200") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::131; envelope-from=gerd.moellmann@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x131.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312170 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Gerd M=C3=B6llmann >> Cc: paaguti@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2023 16:30:47 +0100 >>=20 >> Eli Zaretskii writes: >>=20 >> >> From: Gerd M=C3=B6llmann >> >> Cc: paaguti@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> >> Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2023 16:08:09 +0100 >> >>=20 >> >> What I'm missing is a positive reason why to use it. I don't see one. >> > >> > It's preloaded. I think this is a good reason for using it. >>=20 >> Sparing 10^-7 seconds, when cl-lib is already loaded anyway? > > These are not the only situations in Emacs. For example, in preloaded > code. > >> > The fact >> > that it's preloaded should also say something about how the Emacs >> > maintainers see seq.el and its future. >>=20 >> I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but that's kind of a weak >> argument. And an entirely non-technical one. > > When we decided to preload it, the reasons were technical. So I don't > see why the above is not a technical argument. I'm sorry, but I think this leads nowhere.=20