Make mode-line number display consistent when both line and col numbers are shown.

Make mode-line number display consistent when both line and col numbers are shown.

[Robert Weiner]

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When mode-line line numbers are on by themselves, L<line-num> appears.
When mode-line column numbers are on by themselves, C<col-num> appears.
When both are on, (<line-num>,<col-num>) appears.

The latter is inconsistent and always forces the user to remember which is
the line and which is the column number.  Fixing this is simple, simply
remove the parentheses which are no longer needed and add the prefix
character to each number for:  L<line-num>,C<col-num>.  This makes the
display perfectly consistent, easier to read and does not take up any more
character space.

Patch to Emacs 25.3 included below.  For Emacs 26, 2 lines have to change
rather than one.  It is an easy manual fix.

Eli, would you change this for Emacs 26?  It would be nice to have the
consistency.

*** bindings-orig.el 2017-09-28 17:48:59.000000000 -0400
--- bindings.el 2017-09-28 17:48:59.000000000 -0400
***************
*** 369,375 ****
      (line-number-mode
       ((column-number-mode
         (10 ,(propertize
!      " (%l,%c)"
       'local-map mode-line-column-line-number-mode-map
       'mouse-face 'mode-line-highlight
       'help-echo "Line number and Column number\n\
--- 369,375 ----
      (line-number-mode
       ((column-number-mode
         (10 ,(propertize
!      " L%l,C%c"
       'local-map mode-line-column-line-number-mode-map
       'mouse-face 'mode-line-highlight
       'help-echo "Line number and Column number\n\

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Re: Make mode-line number display consistent when both line and col numbers are shown.

[Colin Baxter]

I do not like this proposal.
>>>>> Robert Weiner <rsw@gnu.org> writes:

    > When mode-line line numbers are on by themselves, L<line-num>
    > appears.  When mode-line column numbers are on by themselves,
    > C<col-num> appears.  When both are on, (<line-num>,<col-num>)
    > appears.

    > The latter is inconsistent and always forces the user to remember
    > which is the line and which is the column number.

There are many things about emacs to remember. Surely, a single
depression of an arrow key is sufficient to remind the forgetful.

    > simple, simply remove the parentheses which are no longer needed
    > and add the prefix character to each number for:
    > L<line-num>,C<col-num>. This makes the display perfectly
    > consistent, easier to read and does not take up any more character
    > space.

With respect, that is a matter of opinion. I find the parenthesis useful
delimiters on the mode-line. Besides, they are present for features
other than line-column numbers.


-- 
Colin Baxter
m43cap@yandex.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
GnuPG fingerprint: 68A8 799C 0230 16E7 BF68  2A27 BBFA 2492 91F5 41C8
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"There is no more common error than to assume that, because prolonged and
accurate mathematical calculations have been made, the application of
the result to some fact of nature is absolutely certain." A. N. Whitehead

Re: Make mode-line number display consistent when both line and col numbers are shown.

[Jose Arroyo]

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As an Emacs user that constantly forgets which is which, I love this
proposal.

On 29 Sep 2017 9:03 am, "Colin Baxter" <m43cap@yandex.com> wrote:

I do not like this proposal.
>>>>> Robert Weiner <rsw@gnu.org> writes:

    > When mode-line line numbers are on by themselves, L<line-num>
    > appears.  When mode-line column numbers are on by themselves,
    > C<col-num> appears.  When both are on, (<line-num>,<col-num>)
    > appears.

    > The latter is inconsistent and always forces the user to remember
    > which is the line and which is the column number.

There are many things about emacs to remember. Surely, a single
depression of an arrow key is sufficient to remind the forgetful.


I disagree, that is a weak argument. This is a situation where we can make
it so that reading both line and column number takes zero cognitive effort
and zero key presses.
The solution is simple and self evident. There is no cost for this change.
Just be consistent with how these numbers are displayed by themselves.


    > simple, simply remove the parentheses which are no longer needed
    > and add the prefix character to each number for:
    > L<line-num>,C<col-num>. This makes the display perfectly
    > consistent, easier to read and does not take up any more character
    > space.

With respect, that is a matter of opinion. I find the parenthesis useful
delimiters on the mode-line. Besides, they are present for features
other than line-column numbers.


If it is a matter of opinion, I wanted to take the time to show my support
for this patch. At the very least I'd like to be able to toggle it.

Thanks for the proposal,

José M

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Re: Make mode-line number display consistent when both line and col numbers are shown.

[Colin Baxter]

>>>>> Jose Arroyo <jose.m.arroyo.se@gmail.com> writes:

    > If it is a matter of opinion, I wanted to take the time to show my
    > support for this patch. At the very least I'd like to be able to
    > toggle it.

Obviously I cannot object if the feature can be turned off and is not the
default. Now where did I put my own box of emacs customisations .....???


-- 
Colin Baxter
m43cap@yandex.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
GnuPG fingerprint: 68A8 799C 0230 16E7 BF68  2A27 BBFA 2492 91F5 41C8
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"There is no more common error than to assume that, because prolonged and
accurate mathematical calculations have been made, the application of
the result to some fact of nature is absolutely certain." A. N. Whitehead

Re: Make mode-line number display consistent when both line and col numbers are shown.

[Robert Weiner]

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On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 5:22 AM, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> wrote:

> >>>>> Jose Arroyo <jose.m.arroyo.se@gmail.com> writes:
>
>     > If it is a matter of opinion, I wanted to take the time to show my
>     > support for this patch. At the very least I'd like to be able to
>     > toggle it.
>
> Obviously I cannot object if the feature can be turned off and is not the
> default.


​I think you have that backwards.  This should be the new default so that
it benefits the many users to whom it will immediately make sense.  Then
for others who prefer the non-uniform prior style there could be a menu
option.

I think an even better solution would be to simply make add a format
variable that would specify how these appear as this would be
straightforward to implement.  Presently, it is too difficult to change
this value in an init file because the format is embedded in a deep
structure and the format string is mixed in with the propertization of the
string.  Separate out this format string into its own variable,
line-column-number-format, and things would be much simpler.  Everyone
could set it as they like, though I would still advocate for a consistent
default for the L,C display.

Bob

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Re: Make mode-line number display consistent when both line and col numbers are shown.

[Robert Weiner]

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I have moved this issue to the Emacs bug tracker as Emacs bug#28648.  Let's
continue any discussion of this there.

The initial bug report contains an updated patch to Emacs 25.3 that allows
for modifying the line and column display format strings and having the
mode-line automatically reflect the changes.

Bob

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Re: Make mode-line number display consistent when both line and col numbers are shown.

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> "RW" == Robert Weiner <rsw@gnu.org> writes:

RW> ​I think you have that backwards. This should be the new default so that it
RW> benefits the many users to whom it will immediately make sense. Then for
RW> others who prefer the non-uniform prior style there could be a menu
RW> option.

It think the new default should be:

    Lnn
    Cnn
    Lnn Cnn

No parens or comma, no change of prefix. You either display the line, or the
column, or both, but always in the same way.

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

Re: Make mode-line number display consistent when both line and col numbers are shown.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "John Wiegley" <johnw@gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 10:35:14 -0700
> Cc: Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com>, Jose Arroyo <jose.m.arroyo.se@gmail.com>,
> 	rswgnu@gmail.com, emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> It think the new default should be:
> 
>     Lnn
>     Cnn
>     Lnn Cnn

That's what we had before Emacs 22.1.

Re: Make mode-line number display consistent when both line and col numbers are shown.

[Richard Copley]

On 29 September 2017 at 19:16, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>> From: "John Wiegley" <johnw@gnu.org>
>> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 10:35:14 -0700
>> Cc: Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com>, Jose Arroyo <jose.m.arroyo.se@gmail.com>,
>>       rswgnu@gmail.com, emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
>>
>> It think the new default should be:
>>
>>     Lnn
>>     Cnn
>>     Lnn Cnn
>
> That's what we had before Emacs 22.1.

To judge prematurely from only this thread as it stands, it does
seem to be what we like here and now (me too, FWIW).

Re: Make mode-line number display consistent when both line and col numbers are shown.

[Kaushal Modi]

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On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 2:27 PM Richard Copley <rcopley@gmail.com> wrote:

> >> It think the new default should be:
> >>
> >>     Lnn
> >>     Cnn
> >>     Lnn Cnn
> >
> > That's what we had before Emacs 22.1.
>
> To judge prematurely from only this thread as it stands, it does
> seem to be what we like here and now (me too, FWIW).
>

I agree, it's simple and clearer -- no commas, no parentheses, no guesswork.
-- 

Kaushal Modi

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Re: Make mode-line number display consistent when both line and col numbers are shown.

[Yuri Khan]

On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 1:30 AM, Kaushal Modi <kaushal.modi@gmail.com> wrote:

> I agree, it's simple and clearer -- no commas, no parentheses, no guesswork.

I, for one, do not see the value in either letters or parentheses. For
me, they are visual noise. Letters more so than parentheses, as they
are more similar to digits.

There is no ambiguity between line and column number. Line, as the
most significant item, obviously goes to the left, while the least
significant column goes to the right. Same as hundreds:tens:ones. Same
as /home/myuser/mydir/myfile. Same as year-month-day
hour:minute:second. (Contrary to site.domain.tld though.)

I customize my modeline to display them as nnn:nn.

(My two roubles in this bikeshedding contest.)

Re: Make mode-line number display consistent when both line and col numbers are shown.

[Robert Weiner]

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On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 2:48 PM, Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> There is no ambiguity between line and column number. Line, as the
> most significant item, obviously goes to the left, while the least
> significant column goes to the right. Same as hundreds:tens:ones. Same
> as /home/myuser/mydir/myfile. Same as year-month-day
> hour:minute:second. (Contrary to site.domain.tld though.)
>

​This is not the way an average user might think.  He'll see the numbers
(16,18)​, will have to pause his thinking, will say to himself, is the line
number 16 or 18 again.  Wait, let me move the cursor around and check.  Oh,
I see now.  He will have wasted his time and broken his train of thought.
I bet it even happens to more advanced users.

If anybody likes explicitly labeled line and column numbers together, I
would chime in now if you want to see any near term changes.
So far, I think opinion expressed is split with slightly more people
preferring the explicit labeling.

Bob

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Re: Make mode-line number display consistent when both line and col numbers are shown.

[Richard Copley]

On 29 September 2017 at 20:17, Robert Weiner <rsw@gnu.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 2:48 PM, Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> wrote:

> If anybody likes explicitly labeled line and column numbers together, I
> would chime in now if you want to see any near term changes.
> So far, I think opinion expressed is split with slightly more people
> preferring the explicit labeling.

But please read the whole thread from August 2002 first, of course! :)
It starts here:
<https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2002-08/msg00451.html>

Re: Make mode-line number display consistent when both line and col numbers are shown.

[Stefan Monnier]

> I customize my modeline to display them as nnn:nn.

I don't use column-number-mode, but FWIW, I used to use it and at that
time I used LLL:CCC indeed, like you.  I used ":" because I liked the
similarity with the notation used in GNU-standard compilation
error messages.

I never found it confusing, because when I see 1230:34, I already know
that I'm not in column 1230.

I give this just as a data point; there's no implied intention to argue
in favor of any particular choice.  E.g. I can see reasons to avoid
LLL:CCC because in some situations it might look confusingly like the
HH:MM used in display-time-mode.

IIRC the change to (LL,CC) is fairly recent and it was associated with
some discussion, so maybe it's worth digging back the corresponding
thread(s) to see what were the arguments back then.


        Stefan

Re: Make mode-line number display consistent when both line and col numbers are shown.

[Robert Weiner]

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On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 4:25 AM, Jose Arroyo <jose.m.arroyo.se@gmail.com>
wrote:

> As an Emacs user that constantly forgets which is which, I love this
> proposal.
>

​Right, when you are thinking about many other issues and manipulating
things in Emacs, you don't want to have to remember if line numbers
precede column numbers or vice versa.​

>
>
> On 29 Sep 2017 9:03 am, "Colin Baxter" <m43cap@yandex.com> wrote:
>
> I do not like this proposal.
>
> There are many things about emacs to remember. Surely, a single
> depression of an arrow key is sufficient to remind the forgetful.
>
>
> I disagree, that is a weak argument. There is no cost for this change.
> Just be consistent with how these numbers are displayed by themselves.
>

​Yes, the consistency alone argues for this.  I recommended the parentheses
disappear because they are not
used when only L or C is shown.  But if many tuple lovers chime in, they
could easily stay and consistency
would be only a bit lower.

    > simple, simply remove the parentheses which are no longer needed
>     > and add the prefix character to each number for:
>     > L<line-num>,C<col-num>. This makes the display perfectly
>     > consistent, easier to read and does not take up any more character
>     > space.
>
> With respect, that is a matter of opinion. I find the parenthesis useful
> delimiters on the mode-line.
>
>
​Then maybe you need them for just the L or C modes alone?
​

> ​​
> Besides, they are present for features
> ​​
> other than line-column numbers.
>
>
​If you are referring to another location in the mode-line then that
wouldn't be very relevant compared
to the internal consistency of this one feature.​​​

> ​​
>
> If it is a matter of opinion, I wanted to take the time to show my support
> for this patch. At the very least I'd like to be able to toggle it.
>
> Thanks for the proposal,
>

​You are welcome.  Thanks all for the feedback.

Bob
​

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Re: Make mode-line number display consistent when both line and col numbers are shown.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Robert Weiner <rsw@gnu.org>
> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 17:56:50 -0400
> 
> When mode-line line numbers are on by themselves, L<line-num> appears.
> When mode-line column numbers are on by themselves, C<col-num> appears.
> When both are on, (<line-num>,<col-num>) appears.
> 
> The latter is inconsistent and always forces the user to remember which is the line and which is the column
> number. Fixing this is simple, simply remove the parentheses which are no longer needed and add the prefix
> character to each number for: L<line-num>,C<col-num>. This makes the display perfectly consistent, easier
> to read and does not take up any more character space.

We had "Ln Cn" kind of display in Emacs 21 and before, and we changed
that to the current display in Emacs 22.1 (the change itself is from
Aug 2002).  Does it really make sense to go back after 15 years?

If you personally dislike the default display, you can always
customize mode-line-format in your sessions, can't you?

> Patch to Emacs 25.3 included below. For Emacs 26, 2 lines have to change rather than one. It is an easy
> manual fix.
> 
> Eli, would you change this for Emacs 26? It would be nice to have the consistency.

Well, we used to like the current "inconsistency" better.

Thanks.

Re: Make mode-line number display consistent when both line and col numbers are shown.

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> "EZ" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

EZ> We had "Ln Cn" kind of display in Emacs 21 and before, and we changed that
EZ> to the current display in Emacs 22.1 (the change itself is from Aug 2002).
EZ> Does it really make sense to go back after 15 years?

Hmm, that seems odd. "Ln Cn" and "(n,n)" use exactly the same number of
characters.

But you're right, the mode line can always be customized, so I'm not feeling
too strongly about this.

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2