From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: John Wiegley Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Concurrency, again Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 09:45:25 -0700 Message-ID: References: <87wq97i78i.fsf@earlgrey.lan> <86k2dk77w6.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <9D64B8EA-DB52-413D-AE6A-264416C391F3@iotcl.com> <83int1g0s5.fsf@gnu.org> <83twckekqq.fsf@gnu.org> <83funkwfzf.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1477413989 6815 195.159.176.226 (25 Oct 2016 16:46:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 16:46:29 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/25.1.50 (darwin) Cc: Philipp Stephani , monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 25 18:46:24 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bz4r9-00057p-Tr for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2016 18:45:44 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56474 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bz4rC-0008Qv-61 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2016 12:45:46 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:53060) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bz4r2-0008Qa-TY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2016 12:45:38 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bz4r2-0005L0-1n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 25 Oct 2016 12:45:37 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pf0-x22f.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22f]:35362) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bz4qw-0005J0-G8; Tue, 25 Oct 2016 12:45:30 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pf0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id s8so122248829pfj.2; Tue, 25 Oct 2016 09:45:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:mail-followup-to:mime-version; bh=hahUTjZhAdDFtnkWSs4eiwMhT8CyotibGrf1NxaKe8k=; b=K9lRi6sFPSsFU8hlTXTY2nssVAj2VL4OWzIJ+DDwD481wSL3pFuYFYRsfV1FMjMKzJ sADzlUrspzQyVs8IcVhY9m/Mp93X77nqq2GrshFdfUf1JV2CrxTWv2DNJiIcCOjaxU47 jEbnUmd2smFm/B8WZ1FXvz7qFQumNUmcsdMeLMmk0Ss/0DskZqhQVRLZmo+W+c+rm1ll GqJkujRyqq9kaW3ues0AwTmLgCNywFQe/fqwgVgG403PviQgpIauhMzN4mX6ieb6Y04x 5ARE7iyEN+NwhFsY1IteESQ6d92Iqw0HwHAnO35hS2lvEUeOAQ1CzHMkrDDJiFrllVkz yirg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :references:user-agent:mail-followup-to:mime-version; bh=hahUTjZhAdDFtnkWSs4eiwMhT8CyotibGrf1NxaKe8k=; b=WTqOY37Ir+qmGa0XvR5HxdRh4jDSr6Y/Gl/j4sjMFc7/1zVl4Vqv3THPuCiMADtErQ lMeg8OF6pRZlXzNtUNRcaelSGtp0lWox2dFuIoYJIIdV/P2aDcyRiefweHENMs8nhQJo 8FPslK7/oTDZAqDY3sRySs1CdArUokBBiAmzwbFHL3DbvMq5b29skfF/OuxoXWQvADR/ IYV3g+XbOOqcGZzkoSezTSLii3hWRcY5EWIIZJouvOtLDOdFKTnN0oCzZJF11l7N+VL+ yiJ9mHhso81J4Rjbbg7ZghREAwPvLuSGWuTf5ao7a9E1inQr69bKBl/mnEiX3bYwpMtX eSHQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ABUngvclBaCXt9sB3B9nJ8sTEF9WwlTxbztNTGRCeaxiqXSWe4fkgkWlFkn1N2jI2dJ1jw== X-Received: by 10.98.20.200 with SMTP id 191mr41106986pfu.51.1477413928884; Tue, 25 Oct 2016 09:45:28 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-69-149.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.69.149]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id bx5sm34718561pad.6.2016.10.25.09.45.27 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 25 Oct 2016 09:45:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Original-From: "John Wiegley" Original-Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1D7D631D6677; Tue, 25 Oct 2016 09:45:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83funkwfzf.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 25 Oct 2016 19:28:04 +0300") Mail-Followup-To: Eli Zaretskii , Philipp Stephani , monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22f X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:208785 Archived-At: >>>>> "EZ" == Eli Zaretskii writes: >> I very strongly disagree. I think "merge what we have and make it work" is the >> wrong approach. EZ> (Since then, John changed his mind.) More accurately, Eli changed John's mind, by helping me see that (a) having the support affects no one but modules that choose to use it, and (b) we can call it experimental and subject to removal if the experiment fails. At the very least we'd gain some experience by the attempt, rather than confining ourselves to thought exercises. EZ> IMO, we don't have Emacs-specific experience for such discussions. So EZ> these discussions will most probably lead nowhere. Yes, this. EZ> My suggestion is to "learn by doing", collect experience, and _then_ EZ> discuss the design issues based on that experience. I'm open to this. I'd *like* to see exploration of alternative paradigms for expressing concurrency, so merging in the concurrency branch shouldn't be seen as closing the door, or setting anything in stone. -- John Wiegley GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2