From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: John Wiegley Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Preview: portable dumper Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 14:18:58 -0800 Message-ID: References: <047a67ec-9e29-7e4e-0fb0-24c3e59b5886@dancol.org> <83zikjxt1j.fsf@gnu.org> <721b8fb1-5672-778e-b68f-a68b53308f55@cs.ucla.edu> <83vav7xs1p.fsf@gnu.org> <83twarxq6f.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1480371747 31831 195.159.176.226 (28 Nov 2016 22:22:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 22:22:27 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/25.1.50 (darwin) Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, dancol@dancol.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 28 23:22:22 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cBUJX-00076M-RS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 28 Nov 2016 23:22:19 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33403 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cBUJb-00055f-Ln for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 28 Nov 2016 17:22:23 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:44840) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cBUGT-0003PG-Tq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Nov 2016 17:19:11 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cBUGS-0004Aw-RK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Nov 2016 17:19:09 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pg0-x241.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c05::241]:32911) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cBUGO-00048B-3y; Mon, 28 Nov 2016 17:19:04 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pg0-x241.google.com with SMTP id 3so14261913pgd.0; Mon, 28 Nov 2016 14:19:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:mail-followup-to:mime-version; bh=ej6siWBgt9QRvqHeqGbclOWwwWNRS0hgiJdYxlY99sU=; b=U5HR7EOlD0okS4gb8oP3GuY7hh1a4txLrWhr4RRYCNsF0PdAVguc1dmKhbKPCFzY5m 5/PV+aZHAzF4iGjRucgxPyae6pUu/TGe/eXz2FQABuSX6E0GerE3EEEd4/Mx27vRAxaB bIcY2IuPdVJ4mwrspmnYway7RqN/t0q4kr58ZeCOWhGtiTtwoj7UWa7GgrD3iFtfUUBn xAujrYwEQUUE3mL1PS9D/c2KbT/fx+RgnBjouNYEVbfigyw7aKZTD8VDmZKc+j3wvpYG OKqQBdDZ4wzsfr5iPyuNH5j837foQ4vZBQyCTZrw0t2qk2aG70XOkqaSC/2AxSGK/cpH 4Vuw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :references:user-agent:mail-followup-to:mime-version; bh=ej6siWBgt9QRvqHeqGbclOWwwWNRS0hgiJdYxlY99sU=; b=FBbN5nMPPg9/t4XPEuH2xbL9LUuU5z679t9AkWor1+TiIyAjnAXk66MdCeXADoegpL od+fQ9KqDc63R62riDBq8CB4kF3f2xsi+janHbQa9fwGgsBkea0iYpz+zVec4hboM32A Tpn02N31+RciVC2XRM4ktIxLAB+u46kekypDH4UyFFHhMEP9ajN3iSyz7zjXkc3l2b2Q 6sE8iKTjgEsPtuolzZzlKFXKHis+SEDvZiSyDAT+1M8iX+kWrIE7DJqcm8rCgdhuKqVo 9NzeWUlPstxC9Cwy92qwWeZWXpNnyCeM7Ptty6md/9yHd8glT/JqOynaSSZ3u+e8h/ty ZvZQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC0203+KX+Gkaa5OMk1ZGZly2bBDjinDcPMre+27HElSA1gqEn7wNkFsYz5YzMaYscw== X-Received: by 10.98.31.203 with SMTP id l72mr24571653pfj.74.1480371543003; Mon, 28 Nov 2016 14:19:03 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-69-149.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.69.149]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q26sm89510107pfk.94.2016.11.28.14.19.01 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 28 Nov 2016 14:19:01 -0800 (PST) X-Google-Original-From: "John Wiegley" Original-Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id A29AA4579BCD; Mon, 28 Nov 2016 14:19:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83twarxq6f.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 28 Nov 2016 23:14:32 +0200") Mail-Followup-To: Eli Zaretskii , eggert@cs.ucla.edu, dancol@dancol.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c05::241 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:209704 Archived-At: >>>>> Eli Zaretskii writes: > Accepting this patch means we believe in this direction, consider it a > perspective one, enough so that we are willing to invest a non-trivial > amount of energy into making it happen, fix the fallout, debug the results, > etc. We are talking about at least one major release, maybe more, and > definitely several minor releases. IOW, we are talking several years. I > don't think we should gamble with such high stakes, not unless we sure we > want to go there, because this is the best alternative of [...] If I didn't know you were talking about pdumper vs. unexec here, I'd swear this above paragraph was expressing my own concerns about merging Tromey's concurrency branch. My issues then were exactly the same: very few people who understand the C implementation, and a multi-year commitment down a road that may not be the right solution. Yet you agreed that merging it in was fine, since we could gain experience and at least there's someone who actually did the work. Why is pdumper not the same scenario? We have commitment from someone willing to work on it, he's even willing to write documentation, and it will give us experience in an area we're free to change at any time, because it doesn't expose APIs to the end user. I say we try it, while keeping unexec in place, until it becomes more obvious that we shouldn't. If we wait too long for the "best alternative", it might the same as what happened to concurrency: it never happens, because there's always a concern about the unexpected-down-the-road. -- John Wiegley GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2