From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Paul W. Rankin" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Improving aesthetics & readability of backquote Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 12:46:49 +1000 Message-ID: References: <20190520085241.GA5136@ACM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="138585"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: mu4e 1.2.0; emacs 26.2 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed May 22 04:53:49 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hTHO1-000ZwX-B2 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 22 May 2019 04:53:49 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34538 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hTHO0-0007BR-Ch for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 21 May 2019 22:53:48 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:60749) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hTHMK-00069x-Vi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 21 May 2019 22:52:06 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hTHHP-0002Rk-TT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 21 May 2019 22:47:01 -0400 Original-Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.19]:50489) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hTHHP-0002RL-Fw; Tue, 21 May 2019 22:46:59 -0400 Original-Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BA404BE; Tue, 21 May 2019 22:46:58 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 21 May 2019 22:46:58 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=paulwrankin.com; h=references:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :mime-version:content-type; s=fm3; bh=KtKjoGGMv6O8qHpdzYBOm6SPfm Sj+WlpEBx9r8qESZ4=; b=LJdb81pnOL2SACQbMgXcAxd6ojWOOZrAR6GH9wbkvB yRjnMXQ16of+7z/4YxhbRcrRXqGMMCiUX+qPPVFtoo71P65cTp4SmTYAATt1p1wH CSqXAqUj6aSoGlVtGGi18kBic47de+olIVF0JfnWOtiBlkD8whZPQx9v9Ui+R40x ACueifPkergSmRdmi7ThUQ15PoRFmvDOuN8sQFCYKB8QD896CBmWVO67BvJ9/TLh n9wmj0KnHjEVitlRxkOjQP/LNGBDHSpjtJDUTsk41BBHq1EFry0qHebu1TYYhUtV s/TqRalEDrHe71SctuLrDa86DZy7/0FjXO4lgDYJQHqg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=KtKjoG GMv6O8qHpdzYBOm6SPfmSj+WlpEBx9r8qESZ4=; b=AAPPHY9D3TtPYQZz7UyzoM +O7m0+7gE1PiR6Esj+wmx7C2mVUYC8wGMjbp7Uanwi+I63saJeeTNmimL84Cd0Ej tEL3iO+7Tmc5krlpH+5aNoqm22WhxNulK4pBsb1oXOR1R8/ZFquNzhsoEZhApVoh 4wXUzLlubpu5zGxBqkCS5IxVOaCGbws/32r/y1O0yAmlIWjWfKVh3g1fNcc0+B5i 5KfT7POdKt4uzVYfToiuHud78BgGraUL8XgdeoVb+vMv/kqEPpV6wxwpIAxLvlVM FVC0bOg4fw1r5K4tqSNqaOxJZLDhPpUgjWUEglXhIdOok14SLUMBCYxYdQXJF09Q == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduuddrudduuddgiedvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpehffgfhvffujgffkfggtgesthdtre dttdertdenucfhrhhomhepfdfrrghulhcuhgdrucftrghnkhhinhdfuceohhgvlhhlohes phgruhhlfihrrghnkhhinhdrtghomheqnecukfhppeduvddtrddvvddrheekrdehgeenuc frrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhephhgvlhhlohesphgruhhlfihrrghnkhhinhdrtgho mhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Original-Received: from localhost (unknown [120.22.58.54]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 1D3CA380086; Tue, 21 May 2019 22:46:55 -0400 (EDT) In-reply-to: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 64.147.123.19 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:236881 Archived-At: On Wed, May 22 2019, Richard Stallman wrote: > > I'm only suggesting to give people > > (particularly those new to Emacs) the freedom to choose a > > more > > literal syntax that fits with the aesthetics of the > > surrounding > > code. > > We must not do that. That would lead to such usage creeping > into Lisp > code. > > I don't believe this syntax would help people learn Lisp. If > you have > some hard evidence, that might convince me, but I think you are > simply speculating. > > It seems impossible that changes in Emacs Lisp would convince > people > to start editing with Emacs. Well call Ripley's because here I am presenting my hard evidence by way of recounting that this was exactly my experience in learning Emacs Lisp. I worked my way through the Emacs Lisp Intro manual, then started thumbing through the Elisp manual piecemeal. When I reached the backquote section, my reaction was "why doesn't this syntax match the Elisp syntax I've already learnt?" followed by "this must be for programmers to add bits of more complex languages like C, and D and E" (because I had no idea what C looked like). So I put it in the too-hard basket and just did my best without it. So yes, making the backquote line noise make more sense would have its benefits. This may make me sound like an outlier, but in releasing Elisp packages aimed at non-programmers, I've come into contact with many Emacs users with little or no familiarity with code. In the recent mailing list thread (cited in my first email), both Eli and Stefan urged people to request features in Emacs when they found the existing Emacs capabilities insufficient: Eli: > But requesting a feature in addition to that does two things: > (a) it alerts others, including Emacs developers, to the need; > and (b) it announces load and clear that the package maintainer > is not really happy with the current solution. Without such a > request, no one will even know that there's a problem here > waiting for a volunteer. Stefan: > All Eli is saying is: when the Emacs infrastructure isn't as > good as > you'd like for your package, please report it as a bug (no need > to do > anything more than that). That doesn't mean we'll necessarily > fix those > bugs (sometimes they're hard to fix, or simply nobody is > interested in > fixing them), but it helps to know about them, and can guide > future redesigns. This is all I'm doing. And what I'm suggesting is not without precedent; I've already cited the rx library, but for something more prevalent: (if COND nil ELSE) -> (unless COND THEN) Clearly the macro unless was introduced to make Elisp more readable and more aesthetically pleasing; Emacs seemed to have survived the resultant waves of confusion and bloody factioning. A few replies have continued with an equivocation of "change" and "addition". I am *not* suggesting a change to the existing syntax, I'm suggesting an addition. If you have an apple, and I give you an orange, the addition of this orange does not change your apple -- you still have your apple! Your life with your apple may continue on unabated, and my preference for oranges does not in any way affect your ability to eat apples. I think what programmers tend to believe is that if they prefer apples, then everyone should eat apples.