From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?Gerd_M=C3=B6llmann?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2023 17:38:58 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87il6bt4z0.fsf@yahoo.com> <8734xetjkk.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cywhsrcf.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cywgx1z0.fsf@web.de> <83wmuowwp3.fsf@gnu.org> <8334xcwank.fsf@gnu.org> <83ttpsuiv4.fsf@gnu.org> <83fs1buzqs.fsf@gnu.org> <83il65u2fw.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="16621"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: joaotavora@gmail.com, michael_heerdegen@web.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 13 17:39:51 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r2ZyY-0003zU-Kw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 17:39:50 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r2Zxq-0004Ac-Bv; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 11:39:06 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r2Zxn-0004AT-Tz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 11:39:04 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ej1-x62e.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::62e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r2Zxm-0008Id-3P; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 11:39:03 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ej1-x62e.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-9e28724ac88so705136066b.2; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 08:39:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1699893540; x=1700498340; darn=gnu.org; h=mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=16KwpaNKVV5FpyfM8PqP2tNlhq95RNhgjhTekYQoLC8=; b=Qj03DlfVZ+6gWYC/94HJvje/bKsB0GbMVzvhhHwFSA2rGw4VtsDPI/GrJGrhEREyAZ WpgV29NxP8ARlItnMcs+dThhcjA/xPH9LGpHiY4FJ2nRRDq0OBvITwmqckEJEk8VVVKH yx1+IHTzIYdqFv/LTHb4PnlmjMZcP7oluSf9mncsP619ggxFpcVhQUUtm8SBBq92XWp0 VcTJdVNGEYni8uC+rbqgLrpEpNqs1PIfANO74wkuwMRqpYGSNrie+laWvXv6vlp2K5d1 4g2skK4LUWq3kLdVE4kJRs6AOKwlp/7BEVgWvs252ejNOqoeSqsB7Jk1RqZg/lsYhYAw 0ZZg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1699893540; x=1700498340; h=mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=16KwpaNKVV5FpyfM8PqP2tNlhq95RNhgjhTekYQoLC8=; b=CgmHFLoUYacYlh0xRNgAon6Slba6epjFTghlgvmmPKULHrq7ShzCqktJgTJ733O/aw HGoySw94Mj3vV+/RlOC2B9N2M1TTZ5etouhWta/lbjcqSCXD2FzFAdhEe0sFtcGcrNHc E+7rvgTg3r/A/AFwCaQF09SJJA0+QZCSaN1swvd/RENJmKckMSkWp8EFm/yc3z6MAgyx rVeiDx+m8ZH97PB2XJva8i0XntBXqiPQKJw8omcNZgoYg6BKQZL6nru9tFGPEZRsn/Q6 G5O5tuKqGJdHnNZ+6i86VyT3ousAcO9G2f/dKiN0TAEyLPVCfxglKbJaglovCLJW+jgg vrEg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwjT1ZEfrRZGvVLPFdb58iAjPT62k/15TZxZtVbpTWNc5SO6ixG WKieBMttywaxnekIcxW8b1n7UJMorOo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGMil7oVRMRkbR8hwiTCYiNtgkk67Ff7vfqwZwRIG7xfHMMt/ah5w+WeRGgugqKnEWb0GL0DA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:a2c7:b0:9d2:414c:b92 with SMTP id by7-20020a170906a2c700b009d2414c0b92mr5060666ejb.68.1699893539583; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 08:38:59 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from Pro.fritz.box (pd9e367f4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. [217.227.103.244]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a13-20020a170906190d00b009c3f8f46c22sm4261085eje.77.2023.11.13.08.38.58 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 13 Nov 2023 08:38:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83il65u2fw.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 13 Nov 2023 16:56:35 +0200") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::62e; envelope-from=gerd.moellmann@gmail.com; helo=mail-ej1-x62e.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312701 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> > Then I guess I don't understand what you mean by "polymorphism". >> >> C'mon :-) >> >> This sub-thread started, when I told why I'm not using seq and will not. >> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2023-11/msg00122.html >> I said this (this is all I wrote): >> >> The reason I will not use seq.el or map.el in the forseeable future is >> quite simple: I haven't ever needed an abstraction over sequence types >> using generic functions, and I never have CPU cycles to give away for >> free. > > This doesn't explain why you say that polymorphism isn't used, it just > states your reasons for not using seq.el. So I'm still in the dark > here, sorry. Been there already when it was lighter:: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2023-11/msg00123.html You said: What prevents us from implementing in seq.el methods for specific types of sequences? AFAIU, the only reason we didn't is because no one has yet came up with important situations where the generics in seq.el are not performant enough. >> Neither you nor Richard ever addressed the question why this >> polymorphism is needed or even a Good Thing. > > Maybe it isn't strictly necessary, but I don't see why it should be > rejected, once it is there. Several contributors to Emacs whose > opinions I respect liked the way seq.el is implemented, and wanted to > use it, which is one reason why it is preloaded. I never talked about rejecting anything. I said at least twice something to the effect of "to each his own". > >> I doubt that your, and Richard's, intention is to really communicate >> over these issues. It has already been decided by Richard and you, >> right? The rest is rabulistic. Slow is fast enough, time will show, >> maintainers think this or that, it's preloaded, it's not concrete, what >> is polymorphism, and so on, and so on. Conspiracy theory is still missing. > > "Rabulistic"? really? With anyone else I'd take offense. With you, I'm > just infinitely puzzled, not to say astonished. Whatever did I do or > say to deserve such denigration? No personal offence intended. If I caused that, I apologize. > I do have an opinion on this > issue, but since when is it deemed improper to have an opinion, and > why sticking to that opinion as long as no argument is brought up that > makes me change my mind is considered a vice? I provided technical > arguments which explain my position; you can disagree, of course, but > please don't treat them as something unworthy, let alone dishonest. As far as I am noncerned, everyone is entitled to his opinion. I can't stress enough: live and let live. Would saying you're like a piece of soap under the shower for me be better?