From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "John Wiegley" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [PATCH] Add shell-quasiquote. Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 01:17:21 -0700 Organization: New Artisans LLC Message-ID: References: <87si59wj42.fsf@T420.taylan> <878u6znii9.fsf@T420.taylan> <836123gfh2.fsf@gnu.org> <87r3krm0t3.fsf@T420.taylan> <5624F66F.1030600@yandex.ru> <87io63lzkg.fsf@T420.taylan> <562508B7.3020202@yandex.ru> <876122n5v3.fsf@T420.taylan> <22053.50324.60123.654292@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87d1waknl1.fsf@T420.taylan> <87oafugeia.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1445329084 19274 80.91.229.3 (20 Oct 2015 08:18:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 08:18:04 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 20 10:18:04 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZoS7F-0005bw-1h for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 10:17:53 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44460 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZoS7E-0007zS-7V for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 04:17:52 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48673) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZoS6x-0007yw-2A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 04:17:36 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZoS6r-0001Au-O5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 04:17:33 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pa0-x22a.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22a]:34028) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZoS6r-00019y-IR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 04:17:29 -0400 Original-Received: by padhk11 with SMTP id hk11so14470396pad.1 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 01:17:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:date:organization:message-id :references:user-agent:mail-followup-to:mime-version:content-type; bh=4giXGBumXx4Y0TUU+7cZQj5akBU4tuJFJ0uMjMvyhwo=; b=lEcYyX9+b3ljtBlCxfgYJCudDBKUSLGaxgzX00rlQBALaRaNXfj7TrVn+cbuZ7zxQJ xxnlsfL0as3qx2Xfjwqow0xOIIzIEzm7J6A+0UFsqMRREe5lqDVNm2WJ5xxtUFwxqAQk yAvLX0Go5kc/dwKWBABP0z5VtXh7E5hlwkCS6SxJr9z2SkyFqEmqJXU2QhsmJ5BCjctz J2F8dDcmQfJmKtfcw+PDOoJR05AJwHLVj51cryuNknt85aF3FDVdEVRwodaQKPMSakyD sS4PtI+POakFEaRQkbmQLgn7wpGAlX1la6SGOcOTpbHe0LkxUDkF4d4qpmVsuhk26AZw ssGQ== X-Received: by 10.66.144.165 with SMTP id sn5mr2546331pab.122.1445329046532; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 01:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id sn9sm2241918pac.16.2015.10.20.01.17.24 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 20 Oct 2015 01:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 3483FF5785EA; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 01:17:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87oafugeia.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> (David Kastrup's message of "Tue, 20 Oct 2015 09:55:57 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (darwin) Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22a X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:192162 Archived-At: >>>>> David Kastrup writes: > You don't need to speak in riddles. I am quite used to seeing my name > explicitly written in such contexts. I've found your contributions to be quite helpful on the whole, David. Lately I've heard and read many things about emacs-devel's "culture" and how it stifles newcomers. This is something to take seriously, but I don't think the issue should be over-simplified just to find a place to put blame. We're a lot of people. We have a lot of experiences. This is no one's full- time job. We all communicate differently. Given those truths: as soon as the number of people involved becomes >large, any perception you choose to adopt of such a group will generally be true in some ways, and false in several other ways. Some of the concrete problems I've heard about that could be meaningfully addressed are: 1. Some patches die in the bug tracker. They get submitted; the authors respond to the criticism; but there is no closure. This gives people the impression that their efforts are being wasted on Emacs development, so they move elsewhere. 2. Sometimes people can be abrasive. This isn't something you can solve by mandate, or by posting a code of conduct. It requires a willingness on the part of participants to assume the best of others, and not expect them to do all the work revealing it. There could be things we might do here, like making the list passively moderated so we can silence egregious posters. But I haven't seen anything yet to warrant this type of response. 3. Newcomers don't understand our culture. If you've grown up in the fast- paced GitHub world of one button PRs and brief discussions on Twitter, the culture and pace of emacs-devel may well shock you. Some of us are OLD, and we like our lawns kid-free a goodly part of the time. Now that is no excuse for bad manners, but it does mean we don't just "hop to it" when a shiny toy comes along. Be patient, give us time. And maybe, if your patch is withering on the vine, remind someone? I think we have good people, who pay attention to meaningful issues. Not everything we do needs to be instantly appealing to those unfamiliar with our history of development. But if it's needlessly off-putting, that should be brought up and remedied too. John