From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: John Wiegley Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Concurrency, again Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 09:42:01 -0700 Message-ID: References: <87wq97i78i.fsf@earlgrey.lan> <86k2dk77w6.fsf@molnjunk.nocrew.org> <9D64B8EA-DB52-413D-AE6A-264416C391F3@iotcl.com> <83int1g0s5.fsf@gnu.org> <83twckekqq.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1476290560 11294 195.159.176.226 (12 Oct 2016 16:42:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 16:42:40 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/25.1.50 (darwin) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Oct 12 18:42:35 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1buMbu-0001tj-Jo for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2016 18:42:30 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34726 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1buMbt-00019U-A7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2016 12:42:29 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45637) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1buMbh-000170-4v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2016 12:42:18 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1buMbd-000668-Rh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2016 12:42:16 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pf0-x231.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c00::231]:33017) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1buMbd-00065z-Hm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2016 12:42:13 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pf0-x231.google.com with SMTP id 128so21237185pfz.0 for ; Wed, 12 Oct 2016 09:42:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:mail-followup-to:mime-version; bh=N7gwe3q3A9TDYmii1kJvEVj/s0vT+69zRvIL0OLG+hM=; b=IfVVX4A3KQxuNKRPnZp+fAJAZCplVEJklhpO9oeACJApKDsegjGGOKt5sq0dO7LM3K dCejq2idHOwDJ49BNSsiNPJ6ols3mU2Tm1F9Me/lvRQpJNYx64w/UNdXJQwwgSRlmSQc clWHyDQh2XCqiNC9iJOsa6jpc8MiwL1cfLLxTC2ovlEG+evZScnZsROEGXUbwxXc6pSZ S+BSAqxiBgndxmo6a4ZBcD/NcuVKwsSnoyG9Yx/wbYYtvyxNtsa9qx2KFLDGMhIKGijm d1WuNohp0msAY/J9GvWXWcI0w3RBqCjeZUDPe3FFn8XvqCrAdvFfG6vZ1A52062Jd8b7 +WzQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :references:user-agent:mail-followup-to:mime-version; bh=N7gwe3q3A9TDYmii1kJvEVj/s0vT+69zRvIL0OLG+hM=; b=D5Shgm6p7CPU6yZGjhpQHXP8lC5oWgVyK3/a0kSvHKq2TNUhSr/zxqZtNdpItQPMfh WHNgR0Xt29Ey6ma2KuLHN1L/gaDsDnIx4IkC6odyGW5PEPlslITccunuDv/oovoxmvvs E4YlYyg3iPDdwOxkBbGnF7LjGCkQT1624bg2ByazyHFUi9LsjlmwG0iepDbNptOxNgl+ a9W8kico3MvveiTR/+tIUjPTt7KMU/k0wKQ/SVj7W9MD/tsZ07hTwymk+Rq50gazIcU/ Yo5sGWxiQ5j5Q+Rv4sjH0L+aB30qMPknpkyCMeIvW3q0/1VfDV/VmQzZfk4pr0mKPRMB atdA== X-Gm-Message-State: AA6/9Rn8oAXpTxkVjNQF4ymUNgySqHbfnDTzatwUMaqXiDGH3xHpyuRXFBVu8v/aO2yrMg== X-Received: by 10.98.21.138 with SMTP id 132mr3117479pfv.38.1476290532570; Wed, 12 Oct 2016 09:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-69-149.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.69.149]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y83sm12980007pff.8.2016.10.12.09.42.08 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 12 Oct 2016 09:42:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Original-From: "John Wiegley" Original-Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id ED4DE2E276E5; Wed, 12 Oct 2016 09:42:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Wed, 12 Oct 2016 08:47:59 -0400") Mail-Followup-To: Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c00::231 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:208177 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "SM" =3D=3D Stefan Monnier writes: SM> IOW, I completely agree with Eli: we should fix the few remaining issues SM> with the concurrency branch and merge it into master. I very strongly disagree. I think "merge what we have and make it work" is = the wrong approach. I'd rather not have threading for the next 20 years, than choose the only option available because it's the only one we have. I'd like more time to think about this problem myself before making such a hard-to- revert decision. Look at what happened with curly quotes: seemingly simple, it got merged in= to master "as an experiment". Then witness how many little issues kept popping= up everywhere, how much debate on this list, all for something I'm sure many thought was totally benign. Now we're talking about doing the same with something as open-ended as threading? What could be done to gain experience, as Eli suggests, is maintain a paral= lel fork, the way Firefox is doing with their e10s support. That is, build a version of Emacs with threading enabled and, for a couple of years, release= it in parallel with the main Emacs. Then pick one candidate package, say Gnus, and have it demonstrate that threading makes everyone's life better, without making things worse for the rest of us. If that's too much work to do, my guess is that it's too much work to maint= ain threading with the contributors we now have. My prediction is that it will increase our workload, since a new class of bugs will appear that are much harder to reproduce and reason about than the sorts of issues we face now. =2D-=20 John Wiegley GPG fingerprint =3D 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGcBAEBCgAGBQJX/mfaAAoJEMFE2PTxn+YwCLoMAK8OwnIZFXdqOOT2Hi1MWkjo WZMdJK4URtAr41iAUI4hlO494SLg1x9H2bhoUZB70Zk7+TnWTJL0DN0T5UAg9dnP u3G0rQvsyoIN/tRJQFw1XFsgvdSN5s8MPMD6Wgkomxssw1+GpOXFHbOBVyhjn8D6 oyQsWlQgZRtssbUzIBFMxdNMedx2QcuMbPhh+opesfkEEkI3RFJe3Fqtak6lOSKi 1nRgDWcPFnrVk65PtDUymI1YE0vN76A6uERLb8ryvnvGTJAn9ZN5rsxwreOg9z4w iAuFIpE/1DezklhN9k4m3z7Wo68Zd641LzRMmdq1KjwRaVxGZAIkm9faFF68pHAy cJZH05vI18b4xc+rod6MIAn1m4HrmTu9orvQpvCmVyFAtC5VbV5Xf1fKS4BoD2tl S4QsIC/6RWAXCyoDSCMrWG69oR09V3EAun9GJ7My33f4avQGn0GrOeETgtw3JCoy aqGA0w3gFOufuDIhSs47QDKHB2X8/VoC9szvMjMBnw== =lVwx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--