From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Andrew Hyatt Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: A proposal for removing obsolete packages Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 00:19:00 -0500 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1452748762 31584 80.91.229.3 (14 Jan 2016 05:19:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 05:19:22 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jan 14 06:19:17 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aJaJX-0004VZ-LP for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 14 Jan 2016 06:19:15 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40299 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aJaJW-0000aE-6H for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 14 Jan 2016 00:19:14 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:34084) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aJaJT-0000a8-DO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 14 Jan 2016 00:19:12 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aJaJO-0001Y9-EP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 14 Jan 2016 00:19:11 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-qg0-x232.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400d:c04::232]:34028) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aJaJO-0001Xu-8c; Thu, 14 Jan 2016 00:19:06 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-qg0-x232.google.com with SMTP id 6so393895049qgy.1; Wed, 13 Jan 2016 21:19:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=U5NQMQeHEym4tdZ6bVdN1lDSTRSesF2nWOXYKu5bmJ4=; b=L8IdwbsisM6EGJpACPXAMBpXoM9YCaqnanncjnSS4joaSjJiWPKyqkFIJOxC8FDlbG QXKHV+UMnOxL4UmKgUW/DZSZNbAvfqzYh+aHlBvxIAJrN5xDBXqwrJnrv3YJmWbR1cRL BwGc9hgb4IJin7wqDK+nAsIjxIr9jRJ9V6JPC3bdE3hYYnlipZfsG4UShfQt8FanaOJz 87xsd/umedMn2Tc+HvP3pXSSuGxt0hwwUw1DZOHE00r+RWFxCZIrCANP8vbLDJEYl1QI Oim87db3MMPgRxJvfSv+sutP1gBsNsko22TJlEtIk5w9qG2bEBhxCTFkFhja2iZ6q1xb 4ZIQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=U5NQMQeHEym4tdZ6bVdN1lDSTRSesF2nWOXYKu5bmJ4=; b=LmY/yQ6BAJBDGdJD3PC7Eppdylvq/UN72yITxNZexTcxnvcj0ldJCChZLgq5p0x9Am 9Z8OQd9/JXaRLSPu66QeTAZj8yEGY0LXR4aLLtBzRb6hCdyHIYKj0u7QwS7pHnKQgSJb GcD1m8LSG7r/R6tgnePgiQuN3xaAYnD0Dxx11IxI1frGXq+U3dj1DfL1POwbVvjnZP3H Ea0CA60ht98hW6ID99L1576l9KPQzbT6ZC4pprheuz9AN+BTTcfWcm1SjVu0P9iqPWls VXxQuybifAUexYdfhbgFZcDrJNiEjfVp0MSYZp8phuN9aNZH8O3ODmfBga7drZs02zWe Rxwg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkYkXbY83vjbMdnjVBHLIdmOnRTO726MEwoQhi9pgi5FDARV3RrxoGONmfYspbXwqdIT4hPSn8sJhB1nXFKVkkI6ucn4w== X-Received: by 10.140.107.11 with SMTP id g11mr2625908qgf.37.1452748745646; Wed, 13 Jan 2016 21:19:05 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from Andrews-MacBook-Pro.local.ahyatt-laptop (cpe-74-73-128-199.nyc.res.rr.com. [74.73.128.199]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f3sm1881321qge.44.2016.01.13.21.19.03 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 13 Jan 2016 21:19:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Tue, 12 Jan 2016 16:49:55 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1.50 (darwin) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::232 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:198120 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > > > For example, a package that is declared obsolete during the development > > > > of Emacs 25 would be moved to obsolete, and a message would be added to > > > > say that " is obsolete and will be removed in Emacs 27". It > > > > couldn't be removed in Emacs 26 because it didn't start Emacs 25 in > > > > obsolete. > > > > > > I agree. But we should not be rigit about deleting it in Emacs 27, > > > either. Depending on how the feature is used, we might want to save > > > it longer. Features used in Lisp code may need to remain longer. > > > Could we instead not move things into obsolete if we didn't think they > > were removable? > > Moving them to 'obsolete' would be done at the first step, according to > that proposal. The question I am raising is when to delete them entirely. > > > Also, can you give an example of something that is obsolete but > > shouldn't be removed? That might help me understand your concern. > > defadvice might be a good example. OK, that sounds like a completely valid concern. I agree that some packages that are well used may need to stick around for longer, and that it should be at the discretion of the maintainer. I'd hope that this would be very unusual, though. One way to make it unusual (and allow things like advice to be placed in obsolete and removed later) would be if elisp functionality such as defadvice had their APIs maintained but implemented on top of newer functionality. For example, a macro in nadvice.el could re-implement defadvice on top of the replacement functions. That would allow us to remove the old implementation safely. I haven't thought about this example very deeply, though, perhaps it is not so easy.