From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?Gerd_M=C3=B6llmann?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Is there a need for a module system Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2022 12:24:15 +0100 Message-ID: References: <978489cd-efda-56c6-5a3f-681e10e64378@gmail.com> <83leoxfusf.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="16171"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: tomas@tuxteam.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 30 12:24:56 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1op6Qx-0003xn-QS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 30 Oct 2022 12:24:55 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1op6QS-0000g0-Ka; Sun, 30 Oct 2022 07:24:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1op6QQ-0000fh-42 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 30 Oct 2022 07:24:22 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ej1-x62c.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::62c]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1op6QN-0001KB-Fn; Sun, 30 Oct 2022 07:24:20 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ej1-x62c.google.com with SMTP id n12so22995208eja.11; Sun, 30 Oct 2022 04:24:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=tSeUSMs1pECLWRIvkosM0oUfcYzpH450Q3AXybP1K5M=; b=p4254Uhv03cErkIrguOp8TNvVBDdE3+GK9/iK7l6E92Cqc80S4E7Btwg2cTdgsK/9J gLltH+nOg7TSDgCLhxhe8QnwTDcv91hMFQhGJswnYtF1xHrq2We75vMggE9dpHRqIyf0 K3OPNDl7CJNR015mnoZrD1EQUnruo6IE9fenbAcvEp6lOvp64G1c8Z9knDUhpqnp01kr 5rM4wF6zxFu0/MFaPtoZYXW46TsWmEwQWJlJuplwFVewHqibmgPVL78BuFNsCK+nTBVI GtXrIC4h6GAL++Rp27dSCCmQuMqwGQebdLcB/3Z6pPi0ie5ML7y4oAOIjrd52MMRwPGW 6RDw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=tSeUSMs1pECLWRIvkosM0oUfcYzpH450Q3AXybP1K5M=; b=yywSDYIFslK55UL0wYV3eCfORPM3dy+4+Tpn5KhJoGBC+5OT1R/SBb2gngmBgxbJVy p11OcBG7EKXROeugrIeBCKHdps2M6vjp/UMm26K6y+3pW7WA8WhBTt/UbIQdxdvMlW9v XOdLytBrR9LnDuxvcihnpujrgbhCKJRgg5d9D9D+lHA+CHCjIHzvd4cHv9VelZgItAsE E6M9xE/ai2hhf6QlD60Jp5e2WJ3JnUEheSRU18IBKBU6UhKiH2b9NA4hCuCBsrTcxaxu GtaxaLm9VH2d5MKWfd05gU0h6PKPPeoN9MGmwvSeNi8jYxGk5/owuG5MOc4C+2I2JxXH Ggpw== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf0BHQAox6gCAE2E+yWPua7AWAlfnrDvBwyUbtzDA0kFq0wAGQ++ N44t9cnMGwFsFUo211mnGAJUw3ca+8k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM4v2fl0Dgcfxzqn1C3u6yKxITr0EhPkvf+3RSxPg9OWFzxTvs5bCb9p+8vK95l0eUe1OOneGw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:746:b0:741:4a1b:cb1f with SMTP id xc6-20020a170907074600b007414a1bcb1fmr7467734ejb.370.1667129057050; Sun, 30 Oct 2022 04:24:17 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from Mini.fritz.box (p54b0c806.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. [84.176.200.6]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c10-20020a17090618aa00b0078d957e65b6sm1753534ejf.23.2022.10.30.04.24.16 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 30 Oct 2022 04:24:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83leoxfusf.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 30 Oct 2022 12:52:16 +0200") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::62c; envelope-from=gerd.moellmann@gmail.com; helo=mail-ej1-x62c.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:298805 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2022 11:26:45 +0100 >> Cc: eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> From: Gerd M=C3=B6llmann >>=20 >> I was asking specifically about shorthands wrt to their use as a module= =20 >> replacement, and I think tomas replied in that context. > > The shorthands were added for a specific purpose that should be clear > from those discussions. It can also be used as a "poor-man's > packaging system", and some contend that it is more than enough for > that purpose. That's what I wanted to know more about. Specifically, the whys and hows. > But that's not why we added it, and I don't necessarily > agree with the opinions which consider shorthands to be a basis for > Emacs package system, let alone a good one. Ok. > Moreover, from my POV, the jury is still out on the question of > whether we at all need packages in Emacs. "Programming in the large" > doesn't sound very relevant to how Emacs Lisp is used. It is not a GP > language for writing programs, it is a language for writing Emacs > applications. The largest Emacs Lisp applications -- Gnus and Org -- > are nowhere near the bar which I'd consider to be "programming in the > large". Ok, here's a new thread, because that's interesting, and something I don't agree with. The reason being that I think one cannot look at specific Lisp programs like gnus or org in isolation. If I look at Melpa, it says it has 5299 packages. Add GNU Elpa, for which I couldn't readily find the number, and Emacs' Lisp, and subtract what's in common. That's pretty large from my POV. > I may change my mind, of course, but I didn't yet see any cogent > explanation of why we would need packages in Emacs. People just tend > to consider it self-evident, like some axiom. Need is a strong requirement. Do we need it now? Obviously no, it's working using naming schemes, more or less as dash.el and s.el show. I'd rather ask is that a good enough solution? Can we do better? Is it worth the effort? Can it be done in the first place? Does it perhaps enable additional things? Opinions welcome.