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From: "Gerd Möllmann" <gerd.moellmann@gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Cc: tomas@tuxteam.de,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Is there a need for a module system
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2022 12:24:15 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <m2edupftb4.fsf_-_@Mini.fritz.box> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <83leoxfusf.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 30 Oct 2022 12:52:16 +0200")

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2022 11:26:45 +0100
>> Cc: eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> From: Gerd Möllmann <gerd.moellmann@gmail.com>
>> 
>> I was asking specifically about shorthands wrt to their use as a module 
>> replacement, and I think tomas replied in that context.
>
> The shorthands were added for a specific purpose that should be clear
> from those discussions.  It can also be used as a "poor-man's
> packaging system", and some contend that it is more than enough for
> that purpose.

That's what I wanted to know more about.  Specifically, the whys and
hows.

> But that's not why we added it, and I don't necessarily
> agree with the opinions which consider shorthands to be a basis for
> Emacs package system, let alone a good one.

Ok.

> Moreover, from my POV, the jury is still out on the question of
> whether we at all need packages in Emacs.  "Programming in the large"
> doesn't sound very relevant to how Emacs Lisp is used.  It is not a GP
> language for writing programs, it is a language for writing Emacs
> applications.  The largest Emacs Lisp applications -- Gnus and Org --
> are nowhere near the bar which I'd consider to be "programming in the
> large".

Ok, here's a new thread, because that's interesting, and something I
don't agree with.

The reason being that I think one cannot look at specific Lisp programs
like gnus or org in isolation. If I look at Melpa, it says it has 5299
packages.  Add GNU Elpa, for which I couldn't readily find the number,
and Emacs' Lisp, and subtract what's in common.  That's pretty large
from my POV.

> I may change my mind, of course, but I didn't yet see any cogent
> explanation of why we would need packages in Emacs.  People just tend
> to consider it self-evident, like some axiom.

Need is a strong requirement.  Do we need it now?  Obviously no, it's
working using naming schemes, more or less as dash.el and s.el show.

I'd rather ask is that a good enough solution?  Can we do better?  Is it
worth the effort?  Can it be done in the first place?  Does it perhaps
enable additional things?

Opinions welcome.



  reply	other threads:[~2022-10-30 11:24 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 123+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2022-10-30  6:45 Help sought understanding shorthands wrt modules/packages Gerd Möllmann
2022-10-30  8:38 ` tomas
2022-10-30  8:54   ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-10-30  9:14     ` tomas
2022-10-30 10:26       ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-10-30 10:52         ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-10-30 11:24           ` Gerd Möllmann [this message]
2022-10-30 11:38             ` Is there a need for a module system Eli Zaretskii
2022-10-30 14:03               ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-10-30 10:40       ` Help sought understanding shorthands wrt modules/packages Eli Zaretskii
2022-10-30 11:06         ` tomas
2022-10-30 11:19           ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-10-30 12:50 ` Stefan Monnier
2022-10-30 13:48   ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-10-30 14:25     ` Stefan Monnier
2022-10-31  6:31       ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-10-30 20:16 ` Helmut Eller
2022-10-31  6:27   ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-10-31 12:13     ` Juanma Barranquero
2022-10-31 12:57       ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-10-31 13:38         ` Juanma Barranquero
2022-10-31 19:53         ` Stefan Monnier
2022-11-11  4:35         ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-11  9:33           ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-13  4:17             ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-13  6:41               ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-03  3:17     ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-03  5:33       ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-03  3:17     ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-03  8:12       ` Michael Albinus
2022-11-03  3:17     ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-03  8:46       ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-05 16:49         ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-05 17:04           ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-07  7:47             ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-07 12:52               ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-08  6:19               ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-08  9:54                 ` João Távora
2022-11-08 10:35                   ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-08 15:40                     ` João Távora
2022-11-08 15:47                     ` Stefan Kangas
2022-11-08 22:43                       ` João Távora
2022-11-09  6:57                         ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-09  7:23                       ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-11  4:34                     ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-11  9:25                       ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-12  3:35                         ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-19 22:51                           ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2022-11-20  7:18                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-20 18:55                               ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2022-11-20 19:02                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-22 12:14                                 ` [External] : " Richard Stallman
2022-11-22 14:22                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-20  8:08                             ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-12  3:35                         ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-22 19:37                         ` Matt Armstrong
2022-11-23  7:33                           ` Juanma Barranquero
2022-11-26 23:32                             ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-27  9:05                               ` Juanma Barranquero
2022-11-30 23:55                                 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-23  7:42                           ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-12-14 22:21                             ` Richard Stallman
2022-12-15  6:47                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-12-17 14:53                                 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-22 18:01                       ` Matt Armstrong
2022-11-22 18:44                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-23  0:55                           ` Matt Armstrong
2022-11-23  7:49                             ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-23 12:18                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-11  4:35                 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-11  9:35                   ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-11 12:09                     ` João Távora
2022-11-11 13:01                       ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-11 14:23                         ` João Távora
2022-11-11 15:12                           ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-12  9:17                             ` João Távora
2022-11-12 13:00                               ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-12  3:35                     ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-05 21:47           ` Eduardo Ochs
2022-11-06  9:05           ` Michael Albinus
2022-11-06 11:19             ` João Távora
2022-11-11  4:35               ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-11 10:09                 ` João Távora
2022-11-12  3:35                   ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-12 10:11                     ` João Távora
2022-11-12 14:36                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2022-11-12 15:20                         ` João Távora
2022-11-12 17:32                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2022-11-12 18:45                             ` João Távora
2022-11-14  1:03                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2022-11-14  6:33                                 ` João Távora
2022-11-14 11:41                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2022-11-14 13:41                                     ` João Távora
2022-11-14  3:13                             ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-11  4:35             ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-11  8:53               ` Michael Albinus
2022-11-11  4:35   ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-11  7:10     ` Helmut Eller
2022-11-01  3:11 ` Ag Ibragimov
2022-11-02 20:11 ` João Távora
2022-11-03  5:12   ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-03 20:04     ` A short defense of shorthands.el (but CL packages are still better) (Was: Help sought understanding shorthands wrt modules/packages) João Távora
2022-11-04  3:28       ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-05  1:09         ` A short defense of shorthands.el (but CL packages are still better) João Távora
2022-11-07  7:44           ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-07 10:18             ` João Távora
2022-11-08  5:02               ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-08  5:18                 ` João Távora
2022-11-05  3:13     ` Help sought understanding shorthands wrt modules/packages Richard Stallman
2022-11-06 11:31       ` João Távora
2022-11-08  0:27         ` Matt Armstrong
2022-11-08  4:52           ` João Távora
2022-11-08  5:34             ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-09  4:03           ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-09  5:13             ` Matt Armstrong
2022-11-09  4:03           ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-09  5:42             ` Yuri Khan
2022-11-09  5:48               ` tomas
2022-11-09  6:02             ` Matt Armstrong
2022-11-09  7:15               ` Juanma Barranquero
2022-11-09  8:34               ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-09 10:07             ` Helmut Eller
2022-11-09 18:22               ` Matt Armstrong

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