From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Rudolf =?utf-8?Q?Adamkovi=C4=8D?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On the adoption of transient.el Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2021 01:02:12 +0200 Message-ID: References: <877di4on3d.fsf@posteo.net> <87im1oy6mw.fsf@posteo.net> <87y29hihea.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="4646"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Gabriel , Yuri Khan , Emacs developers To: "T.V Raman" , Philip Kaludercic Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Aug 07 01:02:58 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mC8rh-00011W-TU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 07 Aug 2021 01:02:58 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58730 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mC8rf-0005iq-RU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 06 Aug 2021 19:02:55 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:53278) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mC8r8-00052r-G1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Aug 2021 19:02:22 -0400 Original-Received: from mr85p00im-ztdg06011101.me.com ([17.58.23.185]:33121) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mC8r6-0003MK-Ov for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Aug 2021 19:02:22 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=me.com; s=1a1hai; t=1628290937; bh=3NYnbJLB8LsI/p0hBcX+xBerSCsR4NWhVbDKX3cZFtA=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=sFUiJJcJ24rGyA25ILvaTYNt27BajqyjN9qmNsVNdMolaQFFgAk2lBdeQmc4rKeQQ EbQC4jPID9bB+Wy7q3N2+AgefJF2nhtHusHG8lNcWDu5Yk+R3rFs7f/veVMV62Rp7d b0edWAZoIUJjw8UNWgdDI0bQupA4fYmd1Os/a+jNNC4uLdx7Ta3khpCNhzbvEkoheZ bfvr3IQY2m37XUsxI9m84Pr0Tj3vArgFu0SV4OHXCDE4PzeJMJ11RXEvDCLrKrvP9f qLjW+xz4SRcExlQQb9hkmo3bUdkndtCgI8K68MY/FzE6sPBjfHAVZuY+22vmcq7rkd yhHT62W3Gz+bg== Original-Received: from Workstation.local (78-141-116-131.dynamic.orange.sk [78.141.116.131]) by mr85p00im-ztdg06011101.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3FED94A0274; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 23:02:15 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: =?UTF-8?Q?vendor=3Dfsecure_engine=3D1.1.170-22c6f66c430a71ce266a39bfe25bc?= =?UTF-8?Q?2903e8d5c8f:6.0.391,18.0.790,17.0.607.475.0000000_definitions?= =?UTF-8?Q?=3D2021-08-06=5F07:2021-08-06=5F01,2021-08-06=5F07,2020-04-07?= =?UTF-8?Q?=5F01_signatures=3D0?= X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 clxscore=1011 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2108060149 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=17.58.23.185; envelope-from=salutis@me.com; helo=mr85p00im-ztdg06011101.me.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:272145 Archived-At: This is useful, thank you! C-n/C-p and C-s/C-r solved. Selection=20 with C-SPC still does not work, e.g. one still cannot copy some=20 text for a bug report or personal notes. Further, and I forgot to=20 mention this in my original message, the new transient UI renders=20 the help system, such as the glorious C-h k, useless. Not being=20 able to copy text or describe all keys is not what I expect to see=20 in the official parts of vanilla Emacs. R+ "T.V Raman" writes: > Philip Kaludercic writes:=20 >=20=20 > I recently discovered thanks to the transient/magit author that=20 > once you=20 > enable navigation via arrows in transient popups, it also gives=20 > you isearch of the transient. We then discovered a bug where=20 > using isearch to find a transient option and pressing enter=20 > wasn't working, but Jonas has since fixed that and it works.=20 > transient-enable-popup-navigation is a variable defined in=20 > =E2=80=98transient.el=E2=80=99.=20 >=20 > Its value is t Original value was nil=20 >=20 > You can customize this variable. This variable was=20 > introduced, or its default value was changed, in version 0.2.0=20 > of the transient package.=20 >=20 > Whether navigation commands are enabled in the transient popup.=20 >=20 > While a transient is active the transient popup buffer is not=20 > the current buffer, making it necessary to use dedicated=20 > commands to act on that buffer itself. If this non-nil, then=20 > the following features are available:=20 >=20 > - "" moves the cursor to the previous suffix.=20 > "" moves the cursor to the next suffix. "RET" invokes=20 > the suffix the cursor is on.=20 > - "" invokes the clicked on suffix. - "C-s" and "C-r"=20 > start isearch in the popup buffer.=20 >=20=20 >> Rudolf Adamkovi=C4=8D writes:=20 >>=20 >>> Philip Kaludercic writes:=20 >>>=20 >>>> On the other hand something has always felt off about=20 >>>> transient, in the sense that it is breaking some expected=20 >>>> behaviour or couldn't pin-point yet, but just unconsciously=20 >>>> stumble over.=20=20 >>>=20 >>> This is exactly how I feel about the "modern" interfaces in=20 >>> Emacs. I reported a bug in Embark recently, and because I=20 >>> could not select and copy the text, I ended up re-typing the=20 >>> text that was right in front of me in Emacs. Say what? For me,=20 >>> Emacs is a program where I expect to never waste time=20 >>> re-typing anything. Magit has a similar feel to it, and I can=20 >>> never be sure if the program will allow me to select text in=20 >>> the diverse parts of its user interface. In my opinion, such=20 >>> uncertainty is bad for power users. I would expect this from=20 >>> Apple or Microsoft software, because their latest =E2=80=9CUX=20 >>> designers=E2=80=9D surely know better than anyone, but in Emacs?=20 >>=20 >> I am not sure if this is something specific to modern=20 >> interfaces, or rather an overreaching when it comes to binding.=20 >> After a while I managed to "pin-point" what was irritating me,=20 >> and it was the missing ability to search (something that I seem=20 >> to do so passively that i didn't even notice it). Having C-s=20 >> work is especially useful when there are a lot of transient=20 >> options. This cannot be solved by binding C-s manually, as just=20 >> because that might work for me, there is some other behaviour=20 >> someone else is expecting (eg. your example of selecting and=20 >> copying text).=20 >>=20 >> What I understand transient and certain other packages do is=20 >> basically override most keys, even those it doesn't use. This=20 >> is more invasive than special-mode, that just doesn't bind=20 >> self-insert-command to most keys. What I wonder is why this is=20 >> done/why it might be necessary.=20 >>=20 >>> R+=20 >=20 > --=20=20 >=20 > Thanks,=20 >=20 > --Raman(I Search, I Find, I Misplace, I Research) =E2=99=88 Id:=20 > kg:/m/0285kf1 =F0=9F=A6=AE=20 --=20 "Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be;=20 and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's=20 logic." -- Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass Rudolf=20 Adamkovi=C4=8D Studenohorsk=C3=A1 25 84103 Bratislava=20 Slovakia [he/him]