From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Helmut Eller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: clang vs free software Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 11:22:30 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87fvqtg02v.fsf@flea.lifelogs.com> <52D81960.2080408@yandex.ru> <52DA8C17.4080707@yandex.ru> <52DC00E5.3020803@yandex.ru> <52DC6A26.3020003@yandex.ru> <87k3dv9z85.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87eh439w1n.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87ha8yqvup.fsf@engster.org> <87r47zezcc.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1390731778 30019 80.91.229.3 (26 Jan 2014 10:22:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 10:22:58 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 26 11:23:05 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W7Mrn-0002VL-TI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 11:23:04 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54111 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W7Mrn-00054t-EK for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 05:23:03 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:57717) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W7Mrc-00053Y-BH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 05:23:00 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W7MrT-00025z-QG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 05:22:52 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ea0-x234.google.com ([2a00:1450:4013:c01::234]:47699) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W7MrK-00025A-Ok; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 05:22:34 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ea0-f180.google.com with SMTP id o10so1191450eaj.25 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 02:22:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=bjHd/ihCzVdjhaE0b5suosDw8PgaZDtcrztIaimiNtE=; b=UyuWOjStBRR8XLCz66XRuNyuzkBfYap8XusSjH8Ad8aJpJrhLeh1NzPIt361d/RfTL 5QJZshqD8o4zldoz9OEY2uFpJXY3WETYTOxt9//xI34OMkX3qzPHxXEl78LcIbZwtrFX Yyj72UCRJfiQTnsrFhRP0aItQ3uMcLbx9gBm2tgAGJdqyOvaXfGQUsaWuAuig6f9hbFj N8tz2SX/AQ8UgqhKAqPkP9cPeu2s7oJ1SyR1LoH7DP+wecOPOuJzqJUQnpUsbzyEHcx3 rumBvfD5q1pz9pR6Y8s3yQKguj5I/2/L63wu8+WSBFu+50NYnDdMkZscXlWFLykviJ6B s8xA== X-Received: by 10.14.126.1 with SMTP id a1mr16341578eei.81.1390731752853; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 02:22:32 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from ix ([212.46.176.45]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id 46sm27430911ees.4.2014.01.26.02.22.31 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 26 Jan 2014 02:22:32 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from helmut by ix with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W7MrG-0000th-5k; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 11:22:30 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:02:13 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4013:c01::234 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:169111 Archived-At: On Sun, Jan 26 2014, Richard Stallman wrote: > Maybe nobody bothers because using clang is easier than to fight with > FSF policies. > > If you mean the policy that we don't let GCC become a platform for > proprietary compilers, what does it mean to think of this as something > to "fight"? With "fight" I mean explaining for the hundredth time that the FSF policy of introducing artificial technical hurdles to prevent some nonfree programs does a) cause more "collateral damage" than it prevents real damage. If nonfree programs don't have access to the AST then so don't have free programs. b) does not actually work. LLVM used GCC as front-end (known as llvm-gcc) before Clang existed and before GCC had a plugin mechanism. Today the DragonEgg plugin makes it possible to use GCC front-ends, e.g. for Fortran or Go, with LLVM as backend. Which sounds a lot like the thing that the FSF wants to avoid. IMO, we would be better served with legal hurdles than with technical hurdles. E.g. the license could say that using GCC as platform for proprietary compilers (DragonEgg) are not allowed, while using GCC as platform for free compilers (or editors like Emacs) is allowed and welcome. (Clang/LLVM is free software, as far as I can tell. So discouraging integration of Clang with Emacs has probably not so much to do with a free/nonfree distinction but more with a gnu/nongnu distinction.) Helmut