From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?Gerd_M=C3=B6llmann?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2023 13:19:28 +0100 Message-ID: References: <871qd8sfdx.fsf@posteo.net> <838r7g8pys.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcbrgnr.fsf@posteo.net> <25924.21015.19614.951576@orion.rgrjr.com> <87bkc4jpja.fsf@dataswamp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="36262"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B6rn?= Bidar , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 09 13:20:17 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r1418-00096U-RY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 13:20:14 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r140W-0006u9-7D; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 07:19:36 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r140T-0006tR-OO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 07:19:33 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ed1-x531.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::531]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r140S-0006K4-1X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 07:19:33 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ed1-x531.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-53e2308198eso1211673a12.1 for ; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 04:19:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1699532370; x=1700137170; darn=gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=PnUG33ddT8dg4rFCBRJxnQa9ah7CmO8Lt5vripxTIDY=; b=iYEje1VYIExcbS1K0KQNbymnwf0C2M0YcYcOP/Zbd06Oj6zDFWAaGYuj2LoJfYFrHz RaTeF3ae7OVpPBAumYKG8u3NVh6Da3MWI1ntfVQfV3QHzxZ+tvzgU8TLfnc+3x9xJ62m U4s4oU/dbsVaTQdI86eNI2zFM8gocjaydOzhV/2BXIFx1q7meqtQ2ueqbFbYsqU5tjAu XkDbdkN9VpwSRYWvqO34s6PBI3rK8MG+Mia7yAzfnAL+ZrbyjAFcvkLHOg5u+llI5CHx PKFv5FUcqCZSVzSEytI4M8tdYoXzSB/72vQ2tfR8M5DV+9N9IoOgdnuoZ8s6vptrv117 bixQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1699532370; x=1700137170; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=PnUG33ddT8dg4rFCBRJxnQa9ah7CmO8Lt5vripxTIDY=; b=OwS8MsZCRvqolbJiHMtNAyWSRMikgLnvyhBbxO6MZRGoXIKg7tSzDOVcPtOq+M7VW8 F6xryhiSMrdfbM7y2f1Y10+ewmBf5+AKFetGt00udE9KGnQ3ICks1yY5NLYskRD89rH6 R0vjyM7gdMh/vFDj2v0rlMZK6zwjZBlaxIL7aAvrffvu7vFPMdW+is/Q0vp0wbzGcRbe p/18PFuIjXyDORDQxs5mjSW/ZpK8fiPI0bUHmcEtw4WVgFQZCrYiu32WaP1p+Opm1YWe VfvFEufxwflz9jUKz8y3TShdDz9qBEzuahNkt+K0eMl1DPBOZKeFo6Vgew6FK0PvtwFN Agew== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxMFaVMZRJ2kfDgQ4yAIa7nv8AjhLSGdDXFBfOo4XqwBCHho950 lk63fbjGOlnei51k/42uQQgxZDtpDU8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFYqm+H7C2crTdojaDdui3LaKdv5zKJpDsCGODpDmZsNqkAOPFOAOIxxXVmenbMIA7XlL+otQ== X-Received: by 2002:a50:8d0b:0:b0:53e:37d1:a31f with SMTP id s11-20020a508d0b000000b0053e37d1a31fmr4122916eds.28.1699532369675; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 04:19:29 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from Pro.fritz.box (p4fe3a276.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. [79.227.162.118]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id eg38-20020a05640228a600b0053ff311f388sm7972922edb.23.2023.11.09.04.19.28 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 09 Nov 2023 04:19:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Thu, 9 Nov 2023 10:34:22 +0000") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::531; envelope-from=gerd.moellmann@gmail.com; helo=mail-ed1-x531.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312401 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie writes: > On Thu, Nov 09, 2023 at 08:24:14 +0100, Gerd M=C3=B6llmann wrote: >> Alan Mackenzie writes: > >>>Just take one look at this "reality" you're so supportive of: the >>>widespread use of cl-lib, not just in people's own projects, but >>>throughout the core of Emacs, has multiplied the size of Lisp language >>>part of Emacs by a factor of around 3. This is a gross increase in >>>complexity for maintainers that is not justified by the slight increase >>>in facility that cl-lib (along with things like seq.el and oclosures) >>>gives. > >>>Throughout this long discussion, this indiscriminate use of cl-lib has >>>been supported only by occasional contributers. Those who actually >>>maintain other people's code, apart from (I think) Eli, Richard and >>>myself, have been conspicuously silent. None of us three have favoured >>>such use of cl-lib. > >>>Occasional contributors may be fascinated by cl-lib, and learn enough >>>of it to use random bits of it in their code. The trouble is, each >>>such contributor uses a different piece of cl-lib, with the result that >>>those who end up maintaining it need to know a far greater part of it >>>just to cope. > >>>This factor of 3 is, I believe, a significant barrier to new >>>programmers coming into Emacs; Elisp is just that much more difficult >>>than it was in the past. And it isn't just for newcomers that it is >>>more difficult. I spend a significant amount of debugging time having >>>to look up doc strings and manual pages for obscure cl-lib (etc.) >>>functions. > >> > That is the current reality. > >> Maybe you could elaborate on what the plan then could look like? >> Or is it not about a plan, but something else?=20 > > You stripped all the context. I've put it back again. > > As a concrete plan, I would propose the following for discussion: Thanks for that. I find it much easier to digest than this clean/unclean thing. And wow, that will not be popular :-). > > We should deprecate those functions/macros/variables in cl-lib that have > no doc string, or a substandard one. This includes "internal" functions, > too. Also to be deprecated are obscure functions/m/v (such as > cl-labels). Am I right in assuming that this is not about the documentation itself, but just some selection criterium for reducing the size of cl-lib? > Having done this, we recode code currently using those deprecated > f/m/v. What would recode mean? Using seq/map? > > (Here a "substandard" doc string is contrasted with an adequate one, > which does all of the following: > (i) It says what the function/macro _does_, or what the variable _is_. > (ii) It describes the form and meaning of each parameter, and its > relationship to (i). > (iii) If the return value is significant, it describes this. > (iv) It describes all effects on the global state, such as where it > writes results to, and suchlike.) > > This would reduce the size of cl-lib to something more manageable than > what we have at the moment.