From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?Gerd_M=C3=B6llmann?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Is there a need for a module system Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2022 15:03:29 +0100 Message-ID: References: <978489cd-efda-56c6-5a3f-681e10e64378@gmail.com> <83leoxfusf.fsf@gnu.org> <83h6zlfsn8.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="19589"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: tomas@tuxteam.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 30 15:04:10 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1op8v4-0004tc-1l for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 30 Oct 2022 15:04:10 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1op8ua-0007e1-HZ; Sun, 30 Oct 2022 10:03:40 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1op8uU-0007cw-Uc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 30 Oct 2022 10:03:37 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ej1-x62f.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::62f]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1op8uT-0001Ha-Cy; Sun, 30 Oct 2022 10:03:34 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ej1-x62f.google.com with SMTP id b2so23645589eja.6; Sun, 30 Oct 2022 07:03:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=bqoU5uP0EWQ4UZ3Bcyf4ESTwvs3E0lu0OC1ZdQShVeY=; b=kkP/zLh+605jHY9H6unhgQlu7E4jJ4PGMchZ8vQ403pt8Gf6AL6tBE6TKZCiW/5FiO oINlhdvhif8KPVuV1+w0FLy8YenXJMq9PYYPgfCKnqEcCZNHj5zorkSqyWjQQtDjswoY h7eS3TZBy4EFGRhhi9KmV8WCeAj2OwDUNsEhe9foganFmsG4sW3Erg8JJaCDNLQa9sxV +GIFCEsUMP2DDBBffFqIyrb/JqyJqBRdpcH3Rtmlw54IfgrJap5BkIMNfGWhbMA4VWnd 0/oCfEkZMoze0MpAJPZHDZuOEmeEr+AFXQdH4hER+XHk9XdpBus91eh76bBAElmcHxbA UoWg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=bqoU5uP0EWQ4UZ3Bcyf4ESTwvs3E0lu0OC1ZdQShVeY=; b=E4bDgc20mx6Wh8YZ6DYYr9YDSyvSKXPZMaHXl3YrFILiRAWS6F633asjFV2x+Gb0xk LHm6rr6k+XGthRrMx5xGSpzuwZGTpXXDY35C/T7ohF8j+YTcUbCYVCKI1qhW0oK1SJVJ 4o9I1au0av1MV/F4QbCQUQUWUJDMj2Y6ZZTfE9VVW3nZO06Kx7R4xd0vJ83GAJvWbQpq x0rfcSqpMBmgsTj3IhlNZQKhs1CC00ViiTXAtgpFDVeVN3PD1AqVrJeI7Mv2xCVweqKx v9D9M/xpHixzvkPvTrH47CsD7VSZ4ubVhv3iPEHeiXufbF6aWre7d3jOtqu5TakH68Wb 4XSg== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf099NhlfbEWO/3impd7qrNwSVk1MOref5lhK10D7Fs5GZcTa3It fNIdS4NEgyelOyvXDqwBc6+/Pabl42Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM4fWR31gph9jvpFpT4Bvagjngml99SAVBAXEbJpVfiWQ8mKGO9i/jRYbMs30HSAxreQSLfoDg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:72c3:b0:792:56d7:285a with SMTP id du3-20020a17090772c300b0079256d7285amr8205514ejc.597.1667138611125; Sun, 30 Oct 2022 07:03:31 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from Mini.fritz.box (p54b0c806.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. [84.176.200.6]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j2-20020a17090623e200b0078d46aa3b82sm1887958ejg.21.2022.10.30.07.03.30 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 30 Oct 2022 07:03:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83h6zlfsn8.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 30 Oct 2022 13:38:35 +0200") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::62f; envelope-from=gerd.moellmann@gmail.com; helo=mail-ej1-x62f.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:298815 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: > Does someone really use 5299 packages (or any number close to that) in > the same Lisp program? > > IOW, why should I care how many unused packages lie around on my disk? > As long as I don't have them in my program, they will never cause any > trouble. As a user you don't care. A program/programming environment allowing the use of 5000 packages should care, IMO. As good as it goes. >> I'd rather ask is that a good enough solution? Can we do better? Is it >> worth the effort? Can it be done in the first place? Does it perhaps >> enable additional things? > > All good questions, but they must be considered in some relevant > context, IMO. "Good enough solution" for what problems and what > purposes? > > Emacs is enormously large. Already there's not a single person who > can be familiar with everything we have, even in the core packages, > like subr.el, simple.el, etc. Or even come close to that. Myself and > Lars are learning something new almost every day. We definitely miss > some problems that get introduced and we are definitely doing an > imperfect job of keeping Emacs clean, due to this enormity alone. You're doing a good job, no complaints from me. We're all mere humans. > Making Emacs even larger and more complex in these conditions needs > very good reasons in my book. So the question of need are very > pertinent, IMO. A modules solution doesn't have to be gigantic. If you take features/pkg as an example, you'll see that it's small compared to other stuff. Ok, it's not complete and whatnot, and maybe never will because it's an experiment after all, but there is nothing missing that will require another umpteen lines of code. And I find it not that complicated either, at least I tried to make it so.