From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Sascha Wilde Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Info tutorial is out of date Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 14:25:26 +0200 Message-ID: References: <20060715221432.GA1252@muc.de> <20060716090816.GA1167@muc.de> <20060717094418.GC1234@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1153139164 30804 80.91.229.2 (17 Jul 2006 12:26:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:26:04 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Richard Stallman , drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 17 14:26:00 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2SAb-0003Hy-4k for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 14:25:53 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2SAa-0005wv-9L for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 08:25:52 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2SAK-0005v2-Qf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 08:25:36 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2SAI-0005sw-Ry for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 08:25:36 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2SAI-0005sn-Np for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 08:25:34 -0400 Original-Received: from [62.141.58.119] (helo=km1136.keymachine.de) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.52) id 1G2SCv-0005vE-1t; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 08:28:17 -0400 Original-Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdsldc149.osnanet.de [89.166.156.149]) (authenticated bits=0) by km1136.keymachine.de (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k6HCPPFB009869; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 14:25:25 +0200 Original-Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0409034.42) ID 1G2SAA-0007UY-R0; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 14:25:26 +0200 Original-To: Alan Mackenzie In-Reply-To: <20060717094418.GC1234@muc.de> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Mon, 17 Jul 2006 10:44:18 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:57175 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie wrote: > On Sun, Jul 16, 2006 at 09:40:57PM -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: >> Well, there are about 100 people on the Emacs project list, and 3 >> have taken exception to your m[o]usings. Even assuming the other >> ~97, none of whom has yet voiced an opinion on the matter, are >> confirmed habitual mousers, that leaves 3% of users as mouse >> haters. > >> I am a mouse-disliker, but I am also an experienced Emacs user and I >> don't need to use the tutorial to learn how. FWIW count me in... ;-) >> I am sure there are other experienced Emacs users that dislike the >> mouse, but the question is about beginners. Isn't it clear that nearly >> all beginners use the mouse? > > Yes, but surely not all. Might it still be that in poorer countries > there are newbies with PCs of insufficient power to support X? There are > surely disabled people who cannot use a mouse without severe difficulty. > As well as lots of people who don't like using mice (at least 4 of whom > contribute to Emacs ;-) [Could it perhaps be that Emacs is a magnet for > mouse-dislikers?] While I do fully agree, that changing the tutorial in a more mousy gui clicking direction is a bad idea, I think the argumentation is getting in the wrong direction here. It's not primary about technologically or physically disabled people, or about some stubborn mouse-haters -- it's about teaching beginners how to use emacs (or in this case info) in an efficient way. It's true, that most beginners nowadays know how to use a mouse, and it might be also true, that most of them expect things to work by pointing and clicking, _but_ that's not what we should teach them, because it's not the best (fastest, efficient, most flexible) way to do it. Emacs is a very powerful tool (as we all know), enabling new users to experience this power IMO means to teach them how to do it the best way from the beginning. Learning something new is always harder than sticking with old habits, but it can be very enlightening, too. :-) cheers sascha -- Sascha Wilde We're Germans and we use Unix. That's a combination of two demographic groups known to have no sense of humour whatsoever. -- Hanno Mueller in de.comp.os.unix.programming