From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?Gerd_M=C3=B6llmann?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2023 20:36:35 +0100 Message-ID: References: <871qd8sfdx.fsf@posteo.net> <838r7g8pys.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcbrgnr.fsf@posteo.net> <25924.21015.19614.951576@orion.rgrjr.com> <87bkc4jpja.fsf@dataswamp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="13941"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B6rn?= Bidar , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 09 20:37:27 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r1AqF-0003Ro-28 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 20:37:27 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r1ApW-0000y5-Kc; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 14:36:42 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r1ApV-0000xv-L9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 14:36:41 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ej1-x635.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::635]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r1ApT-0006ni-OX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 14:36:41 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ej1-x635.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-9df8d0c556eso200915866b.2 for ; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 11:36:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1699558597; x=1700163397; darn=gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=iOZMzSDX72k4WGANvNCrWyiSBaY5Xc1tOqzQMWixvMU=; b=FCRObcYLkSKyakmIJSTvsJZV/8v5yXF1Qu9TlqvbMHbDPgrlB9LjTVQF+65h6RqqdA KUcdaDLn9Rp1QxHwfAaZNnqgUcP+pc73CdZEzLYHxZROi/cr9pG4p//NHevp9S3QOY8S ltPRDFUxlmBeUYF1l4yJsRADkWE9D7wkVwhYYIGWfSMwyqcCDQC0e790OwWVbbSuDRDb 0wSuti0WkerbiQNIE1HQd8VTRGYG9AqMIZD7WBd/wimQxMORnZ09e+P/L/KStO+OE07r lh6cNbqLjopMwfhU32OrE+xQDUHB+sXFyu/xo+V7RZhGbT6D+LSkzhxpTYAkXcsxUZIS NJyA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1699558597; x=1700163397; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=iOZMzSDX72k4WGANvNCrWyiSBaY5Xc1tOqzQMWixvMU=; b=VddOj0BxI0K1Wk1Fx0G2yyAttfgVZJnX/9IuH7PeUhJp8eJoHTTzxUmZA0/SsyfzlL kUcdwAP/ClkZOdt+rXrPqXSjwjVO0P902nEP055HWQUnxlsa7Cficix6SkZgKhA7pxUU nwWX+qLRXd9CGIrvkEO12UPG8dmHXCWHrdZxkjEULG+poWvw9OW9oFCL+LttmXg7oyeh Av9va1w5Xq+hPQItHFF9aFyTjDSFvRlXgiTQXJEtYSZqRJsl8xOQ1mmRMSOmLSBGswpG D/7ofdIog+yKqErDh5vDMbEMNITjEd2iYUZAbNEIjUy3EBP7eInb5adXHwQwywg5jM4T +yIw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyJa33lbqhXzJd8uTLvuxGGhufHcdMnSk2voukYeVYyW2dHikyQ 4osnEevUK5XKaSb3BrPqOc7stLhabfM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG9CMR2og/f4rLr5OKgfO6P66qAqBDM1vVTyJ2ATHyWn7Lu+xVPoerQZcTyRXo2o0l+rIS0Zw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:c485:b0:9e3:f97b:239e with SMTP id tp5-20020a170907c48500b009e3f97b239emr4522377ejc.29.1699558596690; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 11:36:36 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from Pro.fritz.box (p4fe3a276.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. [79.227.162.118]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id qc4-20020a170906d8a400b009adcb6c0f0esm2925561ejb.193.2023.11.09.11.36.35 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 09 Nov 2023 11:36:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Thu, 9 Nov 2023 14:49:24 +0000") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::635; envelope-from=gerd.moellmann@gmail.com; helo=mail-ej1-x635.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312440 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie writes: >> Thanks for that. I find it much easier to digest than this clean/unclean >> thing. > >> And wow, that will not be popular :-). > > It will be a mixed popular/unpopular, with probably few people in the > middle. Back when you were the Maintainer, I think there was a ban on > the use of cl.el and friends, except for at compilation time. I don't > think that caused any problems. Not that I remember, but it's of course a long time ago. But somehow, CL discussions and the clean/unclean thing from Richard were always present. At least I seem to remember that. >> > We should deprecate those functions/macros/variables in cl-lib that ha= ve >> > no doc string, or a substandard one. This includes "internal" functio= ns, >> > too. Also to be deprecated are obscure functions/m/v (such as >> > cl-labels). > >> Am I right in assuming that this is not about the documentation itself, >> but just some selection criterium for reducing the size of cl-lib? > > The most troublesome cl-lib functions are those without adequate > documentation. They're the ones that waste unbounded amounts of time > when trying to debug something which uses them. That's why I'd like to > do away with them. There are few people willing to fix the doc strings > in cl-lib, though Jo=C3=A3o has volunteered to make a start. Ok, thanks. >> > Having done this, we recode code currently using those deprecated >> > f/m/v. > >> What would recode mean? Using seq/map? > > I hadn't really thought of seq.el or map.el. What do they do? I would describe both as sets of generic functions for sequence handling and mapping over sequences. I'm personally not using them, as I wrote here: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2023-11/msg00122.html That spawned answers from Eli and a sub-thread from Richard, which I personally found unconvincing. But I'd recommend in any case that you build your own opinion. > But it's > clear that working code can be written without these or cl-lib. > >> > (Here a "substandard" doc string is contrasted with an adequate one, >> > which does all of the following: >> > (i) It says what the function/macro _does_, or what the variable _is_. >> > (ii) It describes the form and meaning of each parameter, and its >> > relationship to (i). >> > (iii) If the return value is significant, it describes this. >> > (iv) It describes all effects on the global state, such as where it >> > writes results to, and suchlike.) > >> > This would reduce the size of cl-lib to something more manageable than >> > what we have at the moment.