From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "John Wiegley" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs rewrite in a maintainable language Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 14:52:14 -0700 Organization: New Artisans LLC Message-ID: References: <561A19AB.5060001@cumego.com> <87io6dl0h0.fsf@wanadoo.es> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1444600380 12728 80.91.229.3 (11 Oct 2015 21:53:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 21:53:00 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 11 23:52:55 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZlOY1-0001ph-OW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 11 Oct 2015 23:52:53 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49889 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZlOY1-0005FD-2g for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 11 Oct 2015 17:52:53 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45384) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZlOXW-0005En-Kr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 11 Oct 2015 17:52:23 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZlOXT-0004ZR-QP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 11 Oct 2015 17:52:22 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pa0-x229.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c03::229]:36724) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZlOXT-0004ZL-LW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 11 Oct 2015 17:52:19 -0400 Original-Received: by pablk4 with SMTP id lk4so136018049pab.3 for ; Sun, 11 Oct 2015 14:52:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:date:organization:message-id :references:user-agent:mail-followup-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=HQSEHI8wsxVaxqv3fJWXji2i+KmLKkCGuxQeH4dR3Mg=; b=Lzb8mkULdjX5PQoAxsY7BksBeZgrj6mCUsBzlwIZNQMJrgQmg0ZtrFGSpXVoy8yH+v 5eWrKcrBFiSM5ZMzCYdheoDXFh5IEzyg1muUkjYk3HHweUR6uuWJdlTLSGIvFYmHUsMj j/T7EqDQm8xWhgacDSvJVK8UZg5ybcdRzgZkIfTRNRbHoOVryxES0qc58CZT0lNC7sX9 NljdbC/e2Aw6i7wlWLcyXV421+6hnSbNn6d0ElV/4SMBVQvsRDqA3pHN0Ebuu06Snl5a erYzEKoGo+8bvSwCQSFrKhEZmwvU2upINAxq+B7vEU4hIzVMiVJ5DtkSXnPoISI+2Fd0 +lXA== X-Received: by 10.66.102.97 with SMTP id fn1mr30157672pab.97.1444600339017; Sun, 11 Oct 2015 14:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ih4sm14344729pbc.28.2015.10.11.14.52.17 for (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 11 Oct 2015 14:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 740CBF2BB6F7; Sun, 11 Oct 2015 14:52:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87io6dl0h0.fsf@wanadoo.es> (=?utf-8?Q?=22=C3=93scar?= Fuentes"'s message of "Sun, 11 Oct 2015 20:32:59 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (darwin) Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c03::229 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:191277 Archived-At: >>>>> =C3=93scar Fuentes writes: > In large part because that reason, there are key are parts of the C core > that are only understood by one active hacker (being optimistic here). Th= is > is a huge liability for Emacs. I don't know how this fact fits the "C is > working for us" stance. Of all the languages I know, I can't think of one that gives us everything = we need: stability, performance, portability, a large potential contributor ba= se (people who know C can learn the macro system Emacs uses), debugging tools, etc. The C core needs experts, not so much in C, but at writing display engines = and algorithms important to Emacs. I find it hard to believe that the "Lisp in = C" macros we use on the C side to allow seamless integration are the stumbling point for those who want to contribute. Am I wrong in this? Has this turned people away from working on Emacs core? C works for us because it does what it says on the tin. Emacs runs on a huge number of systems, is efficient, and the project continues to thrive after many decades. I'm against changing "because the grass is greener". Give it a decade or so, and I'd happily join in rewriting the core in Haskell. But when I think abo= ut the difficulty of running on alternative systems (the dependencies alone mi= ght kill us), or non-expert contributors introducing space leaks that only manifest for specialized use cases... I'll take C any day. C diffs are clear and concise as to their actual semantic content. This is also a reason Linus has given for keeping the Linux kernel in C. I'm not saying I love C. I spent a career working in C, then finally fled f= or greener pastures. But show me an alternative that comes even remotely close, and I'll happily consider it. John