Re: bug#22145: 25.0.50; tramp and auto-revert tests hang on OS X

Re: bug#22145: 25.0.50; tramp and auto-revert tests hang on OS X

[John Wiegley]

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>>>>> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> A nonfree program tramples the freedom of those who use it. If we were
> running MacOS on a computer, it would take away our freedom. Of course, we
> don't do that.

One thing we should clarify: Mac OS X is Darwin + some proprietary libraries.

Darwin is free/libre software, and all its source code is downloadable[1].
This is how the Nix project on Mac is able to be so self-contained.

The "OS X" part consists of some properties bits that are either difficult or
impossible to build without binaries from Apple. These are the bits that Nix
on OS X, for example, is trying hard to eliminate the need for. Who knows,
Apple may even release these bits at some point in the future.

So, let us not say that "MacOS tramples freedom" and should be eliminated.
Rather, the proprietary bits that run on top of Darwin, and the license used
by Apple for these bits, are what should be eliminated. And that's a much
smaller area of concern than the entirety of the Mac operating system.

Darwin is good; OS X restricts user freedom; and I think Emacs on Mac should
only be considered bad to the extent it depends on those restrictive parts.

Footnotes: 
[1]  http://www.opensource.apple.com/

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

Re: bug#22145: 25.0.50; tramp and auto-revert tests hang on OS X

[CHENG Gao]

*On Sat, 09 Jan 2016 13:05:11 -0800
* Also sprach John Wiegley <jwiegley@gmail.com>:

>>>>>> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> A nonfree program tramples the freedom of those who use it. If we were
>> running MacOS on a computer, it would take away our freedom. Of course, we
>> don't do that.
>
> One thing we should clarify: Mac OS X is Darwin + some proprietary libraries.
>
> Darwin is free/libre software, and all its source code is downloadable[1].
> This is how the Nix project on Mac is able to be so self-contained.

I don't mean to intrude in discussion, though it's entirely off-topic.
Please forgive me.

Thank you John. I know NixOS by name but no more, from your message I
got to know Nix that can handle package on MacOSX. Seems good. Thank you
for let me know this. Besides I keep on eyes on Guix, and hope someday
it can be a PM under MacOSX.

Re: bug#22145: 25.0.50; tramp and auto-revert tests hang on OS X

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > One thing we should clarify: Mac OS X is Darwin + some proprietary libraries.

  > Darwin is free/libre software, and all its source code is downloadable[1].
  > This is how the Nix project on Mac is able to be so self-contained.

This was true some 10 years ago.  Since then I heard that Apple had stopped
releasing updates for Darwin.  The person who told me this is the person
who maintained the GNU/Darwin distro.

I mention that to suggest we ascertain the current facts,, but that is
not a crucial question in practice because few people use Darwin.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the MacOS support does
include use of the MacOS graphical interface.

Even if another system is free, we don't want GNU Emacs to support it
better than it supports the GNU system.  The technical goal of GNU
Emacs is to be an advance in the GNU system.  Support for other
systems is a side issue, a tangent.  We should not let other systems
lead us away from the overall purpose of making GNU better.

  > So, let us not say that "MacOS tramples freedom" and should be eliminated.

That's how it is.  MacOS includes proprietary software, therefore it
tramples freedom.

In order for a collection of software to respect users' freedom, each
and every component in the collection must respect users' freedom.
If there is one nonfree program in the collection, it tramples freedom.

When we describe the injustice of MacOS, distinguishing between Darwin
(if Darwin is still real) and the rest of MacOS would be a distracting
complication.  We can acknowledge it when people ask about Darwin; but
when we're talking to the general public, there's no need to talk
about Darwin.

  > Rather, the proprietary bits that run on top of Darwin, and the license used
  > by Apple for these bits, are what should be eliminated.

Indeed, those programs are what make MacOS an injustice.

For most purposes, it doesn't matter which parts of MacOS are nonfree.
Subdividing MacOS into parts is interesting only to a few;
it is a side issue.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.