From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?Gerd_M=C3=B6llmann?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Help sought understanding shorthands wrt modules/packages Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2022 13:57:54 +0100 Message-ID: References: <25a8a3a6-81c8-3fbc-434d-fb1b24ae1d62@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="19371"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: eller.helmut@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Juanma Barranquero Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Oct 31 14:01:41 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1opUQ8-0004y9-88 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 31 Oct 2022 14:01:40 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1opUMt-000096-Gb; Mon, 31 Oct 2022 08:58:19 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1opUMd-0008Ko-2t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 31 Oct 2022 08:58:04 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ej1-x633.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::633]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1opUMZ-0004yo-9G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 31 Oct 2022 08:58:01 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ej1-x633.google.com with SMTP id bj12so29078132ejb.13 for ; Mon, 31 Oct 2022 05:57:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=QNlmKQfxWObG70dqH5ohuxLADjh4Io6U3QWPXDM+Ga0=; b=TkiCj7LM+SlKsMg6Hz3l3U84Caecdce/IKXzZjMdys3CQAAYo8Kjm6/fhiq16CBs9w dVjMfwV6fQfqqTqre5h+FZ3J8iorV/TdXLdvdq285Yh+In6+f7Qlwzq+CReDFHgNqSw/ efYAdUhsKg8Wj+THI3lxbVsg5RBnD9ZAiwFJavXd9d1Pj6pCyP+HK2PDPnh8ZSwroU7F f5N3olSwW7rFzS7mXCuvh+op/CrZKypwxKB5HrA0SIs/Bi+uWSnqtqjIj9Ed8BsrX/oN DUXu8jmao+AKT+4yj303zzEg/dcaBY1cjbjXIBT5FOVplsokplR5bJb6ibHxek3dAgmp Jp4A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=QNlmKQfxWObG70dqH5ohuxLADjh4Io6U3QWPXDM+Ga0=; b=peu18a3PJZUaXsbnS2dg/k4eRTdIM33ErAX4WwJDoN8bsg2sXFEwoS65nUTHMM/Hk9 jxvfJxDV8OSOrh8ZNhbuJ0j1Zb8tJLENIkF7suidStF3bEpVwTVKueLZo5ZRCb9qrNEm nhpbd++5tExGbsSHrAI9CY9XkC5v/JhVYoHudBUT9cqTOjDl676iNVJJNs6vjljItG+A yirTfj7oL8cu5gH968frteMNob0QBuwxxmtjD6ixS2MOHLmf4dmccqNo0YAdudEzQWc/ v6LBW3OHIpY4/BIgLAP2LJK7m0VyqkXcL4c7bIt7NRAnjPyEDywEAiROWITfwzK3GOma Jjdg== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf3hwuqj/PgND4i6sJcRMbBLdFbHFTdIte5IRXsA2kgHenUof7ER JOOPd0XLO7uhlFxDy2kQUi/X0fLZEdQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM4/MqmgrvFnbbTQjDwMFaWwXN+YAnLtEIdS5PRLSmd/O8KdSd23nMp3skCtbRQFYyOzuz+WuA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:2c72:b0:7a4:a4b4:9fcb with SMTP id ib18-20020a1709072c7200b007a4a4b49fcbmr12856638ejc.403.1667221076714; Mon, 31 Oct 2022 05:57:56 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from Mini.fritz.box (pd9e36de0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. [217.227.109.224]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id cf5-20020a0564020b8500b0046353d6f454sm1496506edb.95.2022.10.31.05.57.55 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 31 Oct 2022 05:57:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Juanma Barranquero's message of "Mon, 31 Oct 2022 13:13:10 +0100") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::633; envelope-from=gerd.moellmann@gmail.com; helo=mail-ej1-x633.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:298847 Archived-At: Juanma Barranquero writes: > On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 7:28 AM Gerd M=C3=B6llmann wrote: > >=20=20=20 > But let me add, as notorious trouble-maker, that shorthands consist of=20 > problems only. The fact that no-one seems to want to ask why I think=20 > that, I interpret as meaning that this is a well-known fact :-). > > Please elaborate. Hi Juanma, glad you asked :-). The basic problem is that the shorthands are 100% ephemeral, and are not managed in any way. Example from the Info manual ;; read-symbol-shorthands: (("snu-" . "some-nice-string-utils-")) The "snu-" definition is not recorded anywhere, nothing is preventing someone else from also using "snu-", or warning about it. You can't find out that "snu-" was used to read it from looking at a symbol, or if an abbreviation was used at all, which is in my eyes unlispy, because it allows no introspection. Add to that that read-file-names can be bound locally, by developers and users, as they see fit (file-local, buffer-local, dynamically). Now we have a whole new type of possible conflicts, in addition to what we already have. And good look with xref, grep and alike. Does that make sense? > Let's see. I hope that ideology doesn't play a role in Emacs, and=20 > Richard simply didn't have the necessary information to change his mind. > > Ideology was one motivating factor to choose Bazar and not git, back then= .=20 Ok, that's true. Although, I don't really see how GNU has any stakes in Lisp standards. Maybe with the Guile thing that cropped up 20 years ago, but I'd hope that that's no longer an issue. But who knows? Hm, thinking of this--wouldn't it be a good idea to integrate ECL with Emacs? Hm :-).