From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?Gerd_M=C3=B6llmann?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs design and architecture Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2023 20:36:07 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87fs3ur9u8.fsf@dataswamp.org> <875y4moiiq.fsf@dataswamp.org> <83r0n4rj78.fsf@gnu.org> <83cyynpmvd.fsf@gnu.org> <838r99mh40.fsf@gnu.org> <83h6nwlmt4.fsf@gnu.org> <456d12ac-ecf4-3de4-56bb-a2440580777f@gutov.dev> <83a5tokmsv.fsf@gnu.org> <83sf7fki5g.fsf@gnu.org> <43d642a8-d1b4-05ed-41e0-6e52d22df2d4@gutov.dev> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="26661"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Yuri Khan , owinebar@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 15 20:37:06 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qhDgg-0006gT-3G for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 15 Sep 2023 20:37:06 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qhDfx-0000mP-JN; Fri, 15 Sep 2023 14:36:21 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qhDfs-0000lq-UM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 15 Sep 2023 14:36:17 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ed1-x534.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::534]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qhDfo-00029j-3C; Fri, 15 Sep 2023 14:36:15 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ed1-x534.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-529fb04a234so2918448a12.3; Fri, 15 Sep 2023 11:36:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1694802969; x=1695407769; darn=gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=cf13yp3QRf6MZsebyfpDWtRVijzh6MIeST7KifxJUZ8=; b=QTXH/AN7gj2EgzmOU0nl+y0gqBvDgt2xmxm0LSPKqmu6cy/7xZc/xW8FvBhi2bt9QQ UApsASRnZvFWsMxFH2ozIXATpN/BOWXdfEm149Zhi4S9A4g0rbkhPEQcFUe4S9kshvch 2whyVaGXRz174OtWeXGJXOFq100N4fQt9r08iVwE1qBiuyFJ3k2jhuaRTCPIVd6wvt8U 51AyfQQLsjttHnFQpEn633YzGYtqNWmAOI/MoAylfiMmkqAsYgzssQvU5BibfoRfbXPc Ln6etsyk/ja0YiSjMhk+ZJVswt/v0yYIbOLnahcnSs174wN9RdoHCtwGP+TuYtX1LkVZ dmTQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1694802969; x=1695407769; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=cf13yp3QRf6MZsebyfpDWtRVijzh6MIeST7KifxJUZ8=; b=i+Q+cVg4AeLm/BVNDDzoRHIg04kGn801K4ht3sDT9ghajpdGZrKkS6+/YvnpIROKeH bfvlAAp1dM62LX0W0SsB0XP4eun1EAXF3IP3z3bG1jeuOwHY8ixx9l+6eQkIT39G9iDN wd3shrAbhefiBBmcoOQtkwKTLVCsUSrHHmQ+iAz25QeiR0BtdUhsOMzsOioy49IOwZft r6ncBeRrVcHmP9MAfiuMQxazo1sgGr0OWHP2XXwZ0tECVLuhN3sQgUZ+wpVs4Onw7yo8 Na5tqIXDneDMP0O738oN5B7PwqMKUWK0afiNrKIS/vBRbmYUdiXK0HM6m1yhBumNqZJN +84g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxsRWK4PbO/G60V0FSSQUD2jY3EUAqeHueYj1ngk9OwiRkr7xeA ofEGPh9YFMKvvRqVJv/Q/7obIsRt4OSzWpP2 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IH+kWZriycWcur43TehGZpnJq5WBIy259Acor7RYcDhtBI3CLSpMWU8n/rrK+8KIMxINa0uxA== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:c58a:0:b0:52d:ea50:8b30 with SMTP id g10-20020aa7c58a000000b0052dea508b30mr2519892edq.5.1694802968680; Fri, 15 Sep 2023 11:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from Pro.fritz.box (pd9e36d0d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. [217.227.109.13]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i8-20020a0564020f0800b005309eb7544fsm869425eda.45.2023.09.15.11.36.07 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 15 Sep 2023 11:36:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <43d642a8-d1b4-05ed-41e0-6e52d22df2d4@gutov.dev> (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Fri, 15 Sep 2023 18:52:07 +0300") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::534; envelope-from=gerd.moellmann@gmail.com; helo=mail-ed1-x534.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:310604 Archived-At: Dmitry Gutov writes: > On 15/09/2023 12:32, Gerd M=C3=B6llmann wrote: >> I think it would maybe be good to think about the following: >> Random thoughts about a parallel redisplay, from a height of 10 km. >> What currently happens to bring changes to the screen is that >> redisplay >> is called quite frequently in the course of processing input for >> example. Redisplay determines what part of the a "model" (buffer) has >> changed, if any. It makes sure that all info it needs to proceed is >> available; think jit-lock, i.e. it calls Lisp. Because redisplay is >> called frequently, it must minimize what it does, which is the reason >> for the complicated optimizations there. >> Whatever is done in the end, I think it would first be necessary to >> change this general principle, so that layout/drawing whatever can >> happen in parallel. Without that, I suspect redisplay would get too >> slow, or would finally collapse to a black hole by its complexity. > > I think it'd be an interesting project to study how an existing Emacs > could output into a web page. Or a web driver, etc. How a "toolkit > port" into HTML/JS could work. > > That system is historically more complex than what you described, > including lots of callbacks, e.g. it might be possible to implement > jit-lock using the 'DOMContentLoaded' and 'scroll' events. > > Consequently, though, parallel layout has been historically a hard > problem for web browsers, but the current engines do that, at least to > an extend (I think that was one of the selling features of Servo, > later incorporated into Gecko). Complexity is definitely an issue, > though. Maybe it would be worth looking at emacs-ng https://github.com/emacs-ng/emacs-ng The README lists the feature Webrender WebRender is a GPU-based 2D rendering engine written in Rust from Mozilla. Firefox, the research web browser Servo, and other GUI frameworks draw with it. emacs-ng use it as a new experimental graphic backend to leverage GPU hardware.