From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: John Wiegley Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: use-package.el -> Emacs core Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 07:15:49 -0800 Message-ID: References: <564136F7.2020404@yandex.ru> <877flqe1a4.fsf@gmail.com> <87twoucaxz.fsf@gmail.com> <877flqc9jh.fsf@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1447169657 32614 80.91.229.3 (10 Nov 2015 15:34:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:34:17 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Dmitry Gutov , Oleh Krehel , Emacs developers To: Juanma Barranquero Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 10 16:34:16 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZwAw3-0003yS-30 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 16:34:15 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:32959 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZwAw2-0005fy-Lp for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:34:14 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48745) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZwAg4-0001Jb-J0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:17:45 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZwAg1-0005lK-8G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:17:44 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pa0-x22c.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22c]:34812) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZwAg1-0005lG-2p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:17:41 -0500 Original-Received: by padhx2 with SMTP id hx2so228543819pad.1 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 07:17:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:mail-followup-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=eBPrTEG+N7LCsqnHVH3hzzNqNnAl57q1oE2Cn67LqN0=; b=NrnAkRMIoMSozcLE/z6ruseAr0IhB7j04tTMP6UrOfxHXN2VoL/Q5fHmjZ61PHyaQk G4WeaZl7eFa59SuMtDE1Z+IpmklE/tv8zTqzYQRNmTtdn0MZ9liYWZUAxxr2gwbEb2EM zkEc65kG/aZYOcdII5bI0rsVrGVGWNsfyTUiEaeNb4vV+NDbGkEoqg5EYpksGqg6/myh 0ULS/bOZcB3erKn7ycs6z7K3ipJ9lD4jXTwilvsELEuoaNun/DpkQLJ3n89H/vu3TKnx X5y9LrIPmIwyfFl+Q4njV9catL1xcfrdTX5OaF968kL7HbdVK9b1K4ssBFS4I+1x/9Dk FSNQ== X-Received: by 10.68.177.5 with SMTP id cm5mr6556370pbc.92.1447168660490; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 07:17:40 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from Vulcan.attlocal.net (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id qv5sm4664497pbc.71.2015.11.10.07.17.39 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 10 Nov 2015 07:17:39 -0800 (PST) X-Google-Original-From: "John Wiegley" Original-Received: by Vulcan.attlocal.net (Postfix, from userid 501) id 01BC41050EBA2; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 07:17:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: (Juanma Barranquero's message of "Tue, 10 Nov 2015 13:47:50 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (darwin) Mail-Followup-To: Juanma Barranquero , Oleh Krehel , Emacs developers , Dmitry Gutov X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22c X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:193862 Archived-At: >>>>> Juanma Barranquero writes: > On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 1:40 PM, Oleh Krehel wrote: >> I have a completely opposite opinion regarding syntactic sugar: it's >> detrimental unless you know what it does. > I think you're assuming that someone who uses such syntactic sugar will > eventually want to learn what's underneath the sugar coating. Some do, so= me > don't. I've had colleagues who were happy using Emacs but wouldn't want to > learn even the simplest thing about elisp. I agree, Juanma. I see what Oleh is saying pedagogically, but there are *ma= ny* Emacs users who will never want to know anything about Emacs Lisp. Even if they cut&paste an `add-to-list' form from some blog post -- and even given = the obvious nature of the name -- they won't know what Lisp lists are, or why t= hey need to be added to, or any of the things we take for granted. They just wa= nt their Emacs to work. use-package.el is a valuable DSL, in my opinion, because package configurat= ion is the one place in Emacs where non-Lisp programmers (and people who don't want to become programmers) are forced to use Emacs Lisp to configure Emacs= in ways not allowed by the customization interface. To suggest that we might lose an educational opportunity because we aren't driving them towards define-key and with-eval-after-load, is to think of Em= acs as a Lisp environment rather than a text editor. Those who are motivated wi= ll learn what these things do anyway; those who are not just want to get stuff done with Emacs. To me the primary reasons for having a DSL are: It makes it easier to do the Right Thing; there are fewer things you need to learn; it offers more targe= ted error handling and reporting; and for those who will cargo cult anyway, it makes Emacs configuration (i.e., not Lisp, but configuration) more uniform and approachable. Oleh's arguments against use-package.el seems to be that it will widen the = gap between users and Lisp; I want it to narrow the gap between users and Emacs. John Summary of responses so far: For (7): - Nicolas Petton - Joakim Verona - Phillip Lord - Dimtry Gutov - Artur Malabarb - Kaushal Modi - Ted Zlatanov Cautious (1): - Andreas R=C3=B6hler Against (2): - Oleh Krehel - It encourages people away from learning Elisp - Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora - Adds too many bells & whistles - [Stefan Monnier] - It detracts from authors taking package.el more seriou= sly (?)