From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Scrollbar bug on OS X Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 10:08:44 -0400 Message-ID: References: <7ca1709813602da58a139cee58fb4c63@gmail.com> <3b9c4e2f33d37fed55f640dcafbc8d65@gmail.com> <87is31i8jq.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org> <0ba853825b580f74347416c2c0b4a169@gmail.com> <87vf70ausz.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org> <5b72982df8c370d3a58358de397046c8@gmail.com> <86583cd4c0fa9cf9e4a562be66bb3a55@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1112969355 17779 80.91.229.2 (8 Apr 2005 14:09:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 14:09:15 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Apr 08 16:09:12 2005 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DJu9p-0002O7-RX for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 16:08:26 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DJtjM-000238-17 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 09:41:04 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DJtj5-00020v-Ux for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 09:40:48 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DJtj0-0001yl-Ns for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 09:40:43 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DJtj0-0001xd-Aj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 09:40:42 -0400 Original-Received: from [206.47.199.141] (helo=simmts12-srv.bellnexxia.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DJuB1-0001eQ-T8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 10:09:40 -0400 Original-Received: from empanada.home ([67.68.217.126]) by simmts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with ESMTP id <20050408140845.LCKD1542.simmts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@empanada.home>; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:08:45 -0400 Original-Received: by empanada.home (Postfix, from userid 502) id 28A144D747F; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:08:45 -0400 (EDT) Original-To: David Reitter In-Reply-To: (David Reitter's message of "Fri, 8 Apr 2005 14:12:33 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (darwin) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:35761 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:35761 > As it stands now, the scrollbars are jerking around in size, however, and > when you try to drag the scrollbar, the displayed portion of the buffer will > jump somewhere unpredictable. Yes, and these are just plain bugs. > Anyways, can I as a user please get the freedom to configure whether I like > over-scrolling or not? Of course, as soon as someone implements it. >> The only reason why you disagree is because you haven't tried to write the >> code that interfaces something like Emacs with one of those silly >> scrollbars. After working on such code you realize that GUI guidelines >> might be great, but they shouldn't be "cast in code" directly in the GUI >> library because there are always exceptions. > What would be a good argument for such an exception? Who cares? Every rule bumps into an aexception sooner or later. Every "model" or "metaphor" has its limits. > The fact that it's hard to interface with the event-driven (or whatever) > interface models of certain current APIs might be due to other players in > this game than the UI toolkit. Event-drivenness is usually just a technical detail which may make the code ugly, buggy, and/or brittle, but rarely if ever has any real impact on the feasible behavior. > Let's say one can state what would be good from a UI perspective, and then > one will have to figure out what is reasonably doable from a technical > standpoint. Arguments IMHO start with the user-centric view! Who said otherwise? > Either way, I would humbly suggest that the bugs be fixed first; I know it's > hard and I know that I can't do it lacking knowledge of the technical > implementation. And I understand these things are difficult, so I won't > even try. There's no evidence that it's hard, actually. It's probably just plain and simple bugs, and like most bugs they can probably appear trivial and obvious if you happen to look at it from the right angle. Give it a try. Stefan